mouthymerc said:

To be fair, he *may* be harkening back to any number of things. He just won't say, except that somehow the Beginner Game isn't an RPG, and he wanted one. There's plenty of room to play for a good long while using just the Beginner Game rules. It's not as fully fleshed out as the Beta rules were, but no beginner game set has ever claimed to be.

On the other hand, if he *is* harkening back to the D&D blue & red boxes, then he's complaining about the wrong thing, because those *weren't* 'Beginner Games', they were the full set of D&D rules as existed at the time (back when finding those 'funny dice' *outside* of the box sets was a job and a half). I had a copy of several of the original D&D box sets (and still have a full set of the dice that came with one of them). Sadly, they and the vast majority of my 1st & 2nd edition AD&D books were lost to water damage in our basement.

The original red box Basic D&D set (which claimed to be a full RPG, not just a beginner set like EotE), was only good for 3 levels of play. Period. You had to purchase the Expert set to continue adventuring. The Expert set wasn't available for 4 years after the first Basic set was released. That being said, the Basic set was a huge success for D&D, introducing countless players to the game who later went on to play Advanced D&D (now referred to as D&D 1.0).

I've devoured the EotE Beginner set and think it is a perfect "Beginner" game, as it was meant to be. It introduces rules in stages. If EotE becomes a big success for FFG, it may be because of the quality of this set introducing the narrative style of play to many new players. Even though I own the Core beta book, I've read through the Beginner rule book and find it an easier read since it is so streamlined. I would suggest anyone who has not played FFG's Warhammer to start (dare I say "begin") with the Beginner set.

Voice said:

I did mention it in the OP, but just for you. Lack of Character Generation. There are others but lets start here.

My group went through the scenario in the Beginners Box last weekend. The GM told me it was a roleplaying game, and we trusted him. The "game" went well, and I thought we all had fun. But now it turns out that we weren't playing a roleplaying game at all.

How could he lie to us like that? Why did he go to so much trouble to make us think we were roleplaying?

I shot a Stormtrooper! In the head. And then we all laughed … like it was a joke. Why did he make us do those things? WE THOUGHT WE WERE ROLEPLAYING!!! Oh my God! WHAT WERE WE DOING?!?!

</scene>

Rimmer1 said:

The problem is, in this system, having a "complete" set of rules for character creation (e.g. the ability to pursue any possible course as a character generated with the full rules), would essentially mean they package the full character progression system in the beginners box.

At chargen, a PC is given enough XP to "be dangerous" as far as how far they can go into a class. To provide the full set of options (e.g. "full" character creation), they're actually providing much of the advancement scheme for the careers.

Oh so what he meant is that while it is an RPG, it's only the beginning of an RPG.

What was it that FFG was calling this boxed set?

A beginner's box set is an introduction to an RPG and will never include a comprehensive character creation. The purpose is to familiarize players with the game with an expectation of advancing from there.

There are two ways for a beginner's box set to deal with characters…either as FFG has done, provide pre-generated characters so you get a feel for what sort of characters can be created and focus on basic rule familiarity to actually play, or provide a light set of rules so you can create any character within a very narrow confine.

In either case, you will need to buy the more extensive rule set to advance your character with the big problem of facing the need to completely rebuild your character once you discover the other options available.

….

As far as "I will never use the box set again" statement goes…

1. Dice are always going to be used.

2. The Maps (at least the starship) are likely to find multiple uses.

3. Pre-generated characters can be used as back-up characters, ongoing characters or (shock/horror) non player characters either as is or modified.

4. The counters…I myself am less likely to use these as I prefer other options, but for some, these seem reasonably handy.

The only things left is the adventure due to the lead by the nose aspect though may be useful for some cannibalization perhaps…and the basic rulebook.

Both of which can be used to bring new gamers on board with.

All told…reasonably useful while waiting for the core book.

As it is, the custom dice/rules mechanic is sufficiently different to other games that the focus on how things work as compared to character creation is sensible.

The Beginner's Box is as described.

The crunchy goodness of the game proper is next…along with the Gm kit and if need be, extra dice.

Yummy.

Necrotic said:

And, as stated about three times so far, if I had realiused that, I would never have ordered it in the first place. That is really all I have ever said, that I did not realise that this box set was a Glorified Quick Starter, and not a full Role Playing Game.

Alas, Caveat Emptor.

Caveat Emptor doesn't work in this instance because there was nothing vague or misleading about the box contents. This is more of just a lesson to pay attention before you do anything in general.

The Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game description actually answers the questions What is the Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, and for whom is it intended? and How will this product differ from the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook?

Did the OP do no research on this? A game that interests you and you just buy it sight unseen? In the September release it clearly states that the beginners set includes an "abridged and simplified ruleset". November's articles break down what is included in the box set, including stating that they are abridged rules. And December's articles go further into detail. Were all these missed?

And the point of my post that you ignored in favour of your "Caveat Emptor" statement is that the parts found in the box are useful.

(Though my formating sucked due to posting via mobile at the time)

I for one see a lot of future usage if I can get a group together having been out of the RPG side of things since D&D 4th ed launched which pretty much killed our group way back then. Looking forward to getting things back up and running.

The core book, at 440+ pages will be a nice addition to the beginners set, as will an extra set of dice or two

….it's description includes….

"For example, compared to the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook, the Beginner Game’s rulebook lacks a section on character creation."

Post #1 morning of January 19th:

Rimmer1 said:

Post #3 evening of Januray 19th:

Rimmer1 said:

Note Rimmer says, "I WILL only have the complete game IF I wait for the "Core" book". At 21:18 hours he appears to still not have purchased the game, but I suppose he could have meant something else.

Post #7 Still Jaunuary 19th at 22:48 hours (1 hour and a half later):

aljovin said:

Post #8 January 19th at 22:56 hours:

Rimmer1 said:

So, you asked questions about the difference in the games, got responses within the same date telling you there was no character generation. Then you supposedly ordered it sometime within the same day, but are still pissed there is no character generation?? Did you not read the responses you asked for and got quickly? Or did you ask for details then run out and order it without waiting to see the responses the exact same day? Either it's your own fault for not waiting a few hours (at most) to see the answers to your own questions or you are being dishonest about when/if you actually ordered it. If, contrary to what your posts suggest, you had already ordered it without bothering to read FFG statements of what you would be getting, then that's just your own fault.

I imagine if he found the forums, he is able to have found the articles on the Beginner Box. That being said, he could also type Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Box reviews into Google and got information that way too. Or maybe he just needed clarity because he found those avenues weren't informative enough.

Just realistically, when's the last time you paid $30 for a "complete RPG" + Adventure + dice + bobbins/markers/tokens?

And then when's the last time you got all that from a major publisher for $30?

Even the MSRP on Sage Edition was $39.95, and that was published in 2007.

-WJL

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't know how accurate this is. If you mean the 1983 D&D Red Box that had a full rule set, I think FFG's Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Core Game product is very similar being a complete RPG straight out of the box. It was published in late 2009, and has a $100 MSRP (about $45 in 1983 according to this inflation calculator )

And if you mean the 2010 D&D Red Box , then yes. Beginner's Box is quite similar to that one, and so the format hasn't really died out.

It would be nice to see more of the "Complete Box Products" though, so long as the game is still made accessible for less money to people who don't want or need all the bits and pieces.

-WJL

Sturn said:

If you had bothered to read my posts, and not simply cherry pick my comments in some obtuse way in order to make me look bad, you would have realised the following.

1. Ordered Box

2. Went online afterwards and realised new "Core" book was coming

3. Original post asking for clarification.

4. Clarification

5. Had already ordered book from FLGS, so completed the purchase as agreed.

Jesus. These boards are sounding like 4Chan.

mouthymerc said:

Actually, I found out about a new Star Wars RPG, geeked out a bit, sent a quick email to my FLGS, and only then started doing some reasearch.

As I said, Caveat Emptor

Or if you know the latin for "Buyer do more reasearch" I'll use that instead.

Necrotic said:

The only parts I will use in future, or ever, are the Dice, YT-1300 Map and possibly the box. Everything else will never again see the light of day.

Rimmer1 said:

So the reason for your problem was………

Sturn said:

Not FFG's fault. It appears you created your own problem then wished to blame the faultless game company for it when whining on their forum.

Are you going to purchase a Can-Am Spyder next week without researching what it is then go to their website and complain that it is missing a 4th wheel?

Yes I think "buyer do more research" is definitely more apt. Had you done even a little you could have avoided this. Ah well, live and learn eh?

Caveat Emptor is accurate…

DEFINITION: The principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.

Typically it is used in relation to used goods and goods were there is a chance that they are misrepresented in some way that is not covered by law.

In thiscase, failing to RESEARCH falls under Caveat Emptor.

ie. Buyer screwed up.

…

Rimmer1, the reason why some are "hounding" you over it is that some of your statements appear to be placing the blame on FFG, distancing yourself from you simply screwing up and this in turn is resulting in you making snappish comments that is just fanning the fire, especially in regards to the use of Caveat Emptor due to its use in regards to such things as dealing with dodgy used car salesmen which creates a preconception as to how you intended to use it even if such use was innaccurate.

To then follow up with comparing people responding to your posts with individuals from 4chan, you again do exactly as you did with the use of Caveat Emptor, except in this case you are also ensuring people know you mean it in a negative light. I myself have never visited 4chan and so have no personal experience with 4chan, but I have an understanding on what such a comment means based on others views of 4chan.

Again, it comes across as you distancing yourself from any responsibility by laying blame on those posting in response…which is also a logical fallacy.

We all agree (including yourself) that you stuffed up.

In turn, respondents have made assumptions of your meaning that now appear innacurate, but some of that is on you due to how you responded. No harm, no foul. We all stuff up at times, it happens.

However, leveling insults (unless aimed at oneself to acknowledge your an idiot so even the blind amongst us understand you realise you screwed up on whatever), even though you feel them justified, does little to assist and is best avoided as it just makes things difficult at best or increases the problem at worse (as it then simple comes across as you being a troll)

After all, the cherry picked comments you got annoyed at had a clarrification included stating that the respondent may have misread your intent due to simple miss-wording on your part.

…

Take a deep breath, clear those lungs and dont worry about it.

Sturn said:

Actually, I did do some reasearch, C&P from FFG website, re SWEotE Box. (Bolding Mine)

Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game



Gather your friends and prepare for adventure in the Star Wars galaxy! Whether you’re new to roleplaying games or just new to Edge of the Empire™, the Beginner Game is the perfect starting point.

The Star Wars®: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game features a complete , learn-as-you-go adventure. Pre-generated character folios keep rules right at the your fingertips, while custom dice and an exciting narrative gameplay system make every roll into a story. Detailed rules provide for hours of entertainment as you create your own adventures and tell your own tales of a galaxy far, far away!

The Star Wars®: Edge of the Empire™ Beginner Game is a complete standalone experience for 3-5 novice roleplayers. It includes:
1 32-page Adventure Book, 1 48-page Rulebook, and 1 Introduction Sheet
4 Full-Color Character Folios
1 Full-Color Double-Sided Foldout Map
14 Custom Dice
8 Destiny Tokens, 35 Character Tokens, and 5 Vehicle Tokens

It was only when further investigation, and only when I went to the Core book that I realised the lack of certain aspects (Chargen)

Now as to your comments and seemingly uninitiated dislike of me, did I at some stage sleep with your wife?

Rimmer1 said:

It DOES have a complete adventure. That has nothing to do whether it has character generation or not.

It IS a complete standalone experience. That, again, has nothing to do whether it has character generation or not.

I could bold the same comments then state they are in support of it having a map of the Star Wars Galaxy and it would make as much sense.

Clicking the big "Description" tab above what you pasted gets you more details such as:

While the Star Wars : Edge of the Empire Beginner Game can be enjoyed by players of any skill level, it presents a simplified and abridged version of the full Edge of the Empire rules intended for novice roleplayers. For example, compared to the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook, the Beginner Game’s rulebook lacks a section on character creation. It also contains fewer talents and other character development options, as well as fewer setting descriptions. In short, it is designed to be ideal for players new to roleplaying games.

Rimmer1 said:

Now you are just being silly. My comments were not some crude slap at you (really, a wife joke? how about my daddy can beat up your daddy?). My comments were trying to defend the publisher since they did not do anything wrong at all but you were saying they did. Dislike of you? No I've never actually met you. My dislike is of even when shown evidence you still were sticking to your guns like, "No it's their fault not mine why won't you all not agree with me!".

Since this has gotten overly silly, I will stop responding to your posts. I think I've made my point more then once.

Sturn said:

A Box, that advertises itself as being a complete role plying game, can be expected prima facie to have certain aspects, chargen would be one of them.

Now a to my seemng whining about some cruel evil company that has just stolen my money, please point me to a single post where I do this, I have always throughout this thread admitted that it was me who did not fully realise what I was buying untill to late, all I have ever done and or said, was that I was disapointed by my purchase.

As to your supposed points, you went ahead and though someone was "dissing" [sP] your favourite RPG company and went all nerd rage, acting indignant and all high and mighty, defending your game from any critisism, when it didn't need defending at all as it wasent being attacked.

1. I brought the box set, I am disapointed with it, as a customer, this is my right

2. Whos fault is this, well nobodies really, "You can't please everyone" not everybody will like it but if some sort of blame is to be assignd then I guess the dragons share will be to me for incomplete reasearch.

Now stop acting all precious when someone even suggestes something remotly not good with your little game, your acting like a Palladium fanboy.