Hi! Just a single question, how do you think about Futile gestures working with Lion's gate and Meera effects? Does it cancel their effects succesfully?

Text:
Response: Discard 1 power from a character you control to cancel a triggered effect that chooses that character as its only target. Then draw a card.

Thank you.

Adkadi said:

Lion's Gate, 100% yes (I'm assuming you ask because of the trait part, since, either way, you're gonna lose a power from the character).

Meera… 50% yes. You can, I believe (and I may be wrong), cancel the blanking effect (providing it's not winter, cause then that character wouldn't be the only target). I think she would stay out of shadows, too, since you would only be cancelling the part after the "then" clause.

I may be off the mark on Meera, but I haven't really come across this exact scenario, so I'm giving my best educated guess.

Hi, thank you for the answer.

My trouble with this card comes from "as only target" part. In Lion's gate case could be said there are two targets, one could be the pow and the second one could be the character. Anyway, I thought that to cancel a triggered effect, you have to cancel the whole triggered effect, you can't cancel only one part, can you?

Lions gate only has one target which is the non house card you choose. The prerequisit to give it a trait is that there is power on that character (for the then to resolve the previous part must have been completed).

As meera is a triggered effect (very important because she is not a character ability when she triggers) she can be canceld by futile gesture as long as the character is the only target (so its not winter) Bewear though that if they have more gold they can just trigger her again as she will just go back to shadows.

(awaiting the ktom stick to put me in place ;D )

Actually, you will not be able to cancel Meera Reeds targeting of any character. At the time her "then" effect initiates, we are already passed Step 2 where you can attempt Save/Cancels. Because the targeting of her blanking ability is a "then" effect, you won't be able to cancel it.

Per the FAQ, you can only perform Save effects to "then" effects.

(3.38) Saving from "Then" Effects
Any "Then" effect that would remove
a character from play creates a special
opportunity for players to play “save”
responses to the terminal “Then” effect. Only
save responses can be played during this
special opportunity.

The only time you will be able to cancel her card effect is when she is triggered to come out of the shadows, but BEFORE targets for blanking have been chosen.

stormwolf27 said:

Incorrect. You can *not* use Futile Gestures to cancel Lion's Gate, because Lion's Gate does *not* choose any targets. An effect only has a target if it uses the word "choose". Lion's Gate doesn't, so it does not have a target. The card affected by Lions Gate is *not* a target of the effect.

stormwolf27 said:

Again incorrect, I'm afraid. You cannot cancel only part of an effect. You can cancel the whole effect or nothing at all. And you can't use Futile Gestures to cancel Meera's whole effect either, because the first part of the effect, the one before the "Then", the one you'd actually have to cancel, doesn't choose a target. The choosing of the target happens after the Save/Cancel step of effect resolution, after Meera is already fully in play.

Underworld40k said:

Again, Lion's Gate does *not* have *any* target, because it does not use the word "choose". The card that gains the trait is no target of the effect, because it is not "chosen".

Ratatoskr said:

Underworld40k said:

~See, I hadn't even read your second incorrect assertion, because I was busy jumping at your first incorrect assertion.

Actually it will not work on canceling Lion's Gate either. Lion's Gate does not allow you to "choose" a card. "choose" is the key word used in a card effect's text when a card is an actual target for the effect. Without "choose" the effect is not considered to be targeting anything even though you still need to select to be hit by the effect. It's really only necessary when it comes to triggering Responses.

One example that I can think of where it makes a difference is the following:

The Broken Spear attachment text:

Any Phase: Kneel The Broken Spear to choose attached character. Until the end of the phase, that character either gains or loses a icon.

Futile Gestures can cancel this because the attachment targets the attached character.

Contrarily, the Burning Sword attachment text:

Unique character only.
If it is Winter, Burning Sword gains: 'Any Phase: Kneel Burning Sword to give attached character +2 STR and 'immune to card effects' until the end of the phase.'

This attachment effect cannot be canceled by cards, like Futile Gestures, because it is missing the word "choose" and that means the the attached character is not technically the target of Burning Sword's effect.

This version of Eddard Stark is one of those cards where this has been brought up a lot because he has been used to cancel stuff just so you can draw a card. :-)

EDIT: This is what I get for taking forever to type this post. I swear to God I have work to do.

Ratatoskr said:

(sits back and smiles)

You have learned well, padawans.

ktom said:

~Whoa, since I am the only one who didn't make any egregiously erroneous assertions in this thread, I really resent the use of that plural there.

EDIT: Yeah, OK, admittedly, there was Bomb. I guess he can get a cookie too. A small one. But I said it right first!

I like cookies. Thanks!

ktom said:

Underworld40k said:

I though it had been ruled that Meera is a character ability when you are choosing what to blank, which is why she cannot be used on TRV…?

Skowza said:

That's true. She cannot effect things that are immune to character abilities (or generalized non-plot effects), but it's not considered a character ability until she enters play, so things like burning bridges and fortified position don't work against her blanking, since it's a player action shadows effect for those purposes. Though with fortified position, unless you're blanking their key location(s)/attachment(s), then you're stuck with a vanilla 2 STR bicon unique for the round.

Skowza said:

When you trigger Meera to bring he out of Shadows, she is not in play. Therefore, when you trigger her effect to bring her out of Shadows/put her into play, you are triggering a character effect, not an ability.

However, the "then" part of any effect has a second initiation separate from the part before the "then" (that you can save from, but not cancel - in the FAQ). That part of Meera's effect, which chooses targets and blanks them, initiates while she is in play, so it counts as a character ability for the purposes of immunity, targeting, etc. (It's important to note, also, that while the "then" part initiates as a character ability, it was not triggered as a character ability.)

So, you cannot cancel Meera's "bring out of Shadows, then choose and blank" effect with a "cancel a character ability" effect because your only cancel opportunity (before the "then") is initiated while the card is not in play, and therefore is not considered an "ability." The part that is considered an ability (after the "then") does not come with an independent "cancel" opportunity.