I have to mention that I have not played in a 4 player group yet...

But I fell that only 1 cylon and the sympathizer (powered down cylon for me) reduces tension and fun in those cases... Similar to a 3 player game, once you find the cylon, the game changes, and the "watch your back and other players actions" disappears.

So, I wonder what would happen if, instead of using the sympathizer card in a 4 player game, you simply use another "you are a cylon" card.

In theory, this would mean that there IS going to be a second cylon after the sleeper agent phase... And yes, more difficult for humans, but for me, more fun for everyone (one of the human players IS going to become a cylon... imagine that)

Has anyone tried this? I would also appreciate any comments or thoughts on this idea (specially from those forum members who can think of every possibility of such a change in seconds.. I wonder if they are cylons.. )

The consensus on the boards is that humans have it too hard as it is, so having another full fledged cylon capable of using the best cylon locations and a second supercrisis will certainly finish the humans off.

We don't care too much for the sympathizer, but we play it anyway, because we figure it would be too hard for the cylon to win if we didn't.

We haven't tried it, because we figured it would upset things in the game too much (I don't see how humans can win with a second cylon).

We use the optional rules without Sympathizers (but with lower resources), as we don't like the idea that you have to play "bad" first to get through the second half of the game.

In no game we played - where there were the same number of humans and cylons - were the humans able to win so far (and nearly always the cylons cards were dealt after the first half of the game).

To me the idea would be to add a not a cylon and a cylon card leaving 1 loyalty card unassigned. This card would remain face down next to the board and could be looked at as if it were a players loyalty card. This should provide some mystery as to if there is indeed a second cylon. To reflect the super crisis issue only the first cylon to reveal would get a supercrisis card. However the second cylon to reveal would get all the other powers of a cylon.

I think its a reasonable variant that helps keep the flavor of the game.

You could also compensate by saying that when the 2nd cylon reveals that the humans get +1 of some or all resources.

1.5 cylons already easily beat 2 humans in a 4-player game so BAD idea.

Also, you then lose the option of the sympathiser turning out human.

I've done 8 games now and I like it how it is. There have been 7 cylon wins (2 reasonably close) but, since everyone will be a cylon at some stage, no one in our group is worried about it - the game plays to the theme and that's what everyone likes ... if you want a balanced game then there are plenty of other great games out there to scratch that itch.

TomH said:

Was not suggesting that the current rules are some how broken only stating that if you wanted to try 2 cylons in a 4 player game you should give it some mystery as to it actually occuring. I agree that 2 vs 2 is death for the humans. The one thing the sympathizer card does is destroy the "hunt" aspect of the game. Knowing it will come can be planned for and kind of ruins the mystery part of the game. You know after jumping if the sympathizer will be cylon or human it kind of kills the hunt.

In a 4 player game it can be pretty easy for the humans to make it a 3 on 1 game and they have that kind of control. In the 3 -5 player games they dont. Also 4 plays very differently than 6.

If you want to keep that hunt aspect alive or throw some mystery into the sleeper have it such that the sympathizer cant reveal till its their turn.

I understand the reason why the sympathizer conditions are the way they are but I think it would add to game play a bit if they didnt reveal till their turn. Giving that player a bit of a choice possibly of which side they end up on. ie where their sympathies lie.

I think that the 4-player game plays perfectly the way that it is. The lone cylon isn't completely screwed if they sympathizer turns human... 1) they go to the brig and 2) at least one of the resources has to be in the red.... we HAVE found that if you end up getting the cylon card in the sleeper agent phase there is a good chance that you are pretty screwed, but if there is a first-round cylon, they've better than a fighting chance.

On a somewhat-related note, we have seen one human victory where the sympathizer went to the ressurection ship. We humans really really shouldn't have won, but a combination of our actual cylon(who was a first-round cylon by the way) messing up really really badly and a fantastic streak of luck in our crisis cards caused the upset. We jumped to 5 for half game, our resources remained all well into the blue, the sympathizer went to the ressurection ship, then the actual cylon's turn was next... rather than just staying on galactica he removed all doubt of who the cylon was by revealing. We had a good string of "bump the jump" cards to get us to the -3, we jumped, drew a 3 jump, that put us at 8. then we needed only to get to the -3 once more. We were able to survive that long, but only because 1) we were able to work as a cohesive, suspicion-free team, 2) we had both of our nukes, 3) a non-crippling combination of crisis cards came up lowering each resource rather than just one over and over, and 4) we were lee and cheif, not the greatest combination to win skill checks, but a fine combination for pure survival mostly by eliminating(in the short-term) two cylon strategies of either blowing up galactica or bombarding our civilian ships with raiders, haha. Even with the horribly botched cylon strategy, the game was EXTREMELY close.

aammondd said:

aammondd, great alternative you propose.. thanks. Have you actually used your " 1 loyalty card left" variant?

And that is exactly what I was talking about concerning the 4 player game. A 3 to 1 seems too easy for humans, but besides that, what I really miss is the "hunt" aspect you mention. I was asking for an alternative idea to keep that part of the game.

And I agree this does not happen with 3 or 5 and 6 players... Actually, 6 player game is a lot better with the Sympathizer....

I have not tried it yet but I plan to when the occasion arises. We often get 5 people or 3 rarely 4.

It turns out I thought of another option, thanks to your comments...

Since my idea is to keep the "secret" aspect a bit longer in a 4 player game, in fact a second cylon would be too much.

My option now is playing as normal, with Sympathizer card. If a resource is in the red, it works exactly the same, a human or cylon player will go to the brig. If cylon, he still can reveal later (in or out of the brig).

Small change... If resources are in the blue zone, the sympathizer DOES NOT reveal in the sleeper agent phase, and can reveal this card later to become the "powered down" cylon exactly the same (no cylon fleet location, no super crisis, not cylon reveal power).

That way, if a human gets the card, he CAN decide if he stays unrevealed for some time and work exactly as an unrevealed cylon, or finally reveal himself an become the "limited" cylon.

If a cylon gets the card, he can decide if he stays unrevealed, reveals the Sympathizer or the cylon card. When revealing, I think everyone will choose the cylon card, since it is better to be the full cylon than the "limited" version. The full cylon will get the super crisis, his reveal power, cylon fleet, AND can also pass the unrevealed Sympathizer card to another player.

In both cases, since resources where in the blue zone, a second cylon will appear anyway, but this change gives the possibility to the player to actually decide what to do and when, and eliminate that forced reveal included in the sympathizer card. The turned-cylon human can stay hidden a little longer (freaking out all other humans) and the cylon getting the sympathizer card can also stay hidden a little longer while retaining his abilities, and later turning another human into the sympathizer.

I think I will try this option when a 4 player game appears..

aammondd said:

That's a fair point.

We've discussed an idea where the sympathizer still comes out as in the normal rules, but their loyalty is decided by a dice roll that is dependant on both the value of the lowest resource and the distance already jumped at this - as a human sympathizer is a lot more powerful if 6 distance has been jumped over 4 distance.

I've been playing around with numbers and a simple equation and have produced a simple look-up table that will determine the loyalty, so even though the humans force down the resources there will be a chance that the sympathizer could be a cylon (and a possibility that even though all resources are blue the sympathizer may be a cylon). A bit of fun for those who think the straight blue/red rule for the sympathizer is a bit gamey and would like a little bit extra tension.

TomH said:

And where, if I may ask, can we get look at that table?

Havok said:

No probs. I'm new-ish to the forum but it seems there isn't any private messaging here and I'm not keen on leaving my email on display. There's a boardgame (and other stuff) discussion/fan - fortressat.com - that I'm a member at (id is southernman ) and you can quickly join and message me there (a few of the FFG people post there, as gamers only), or you can post your email and I'll just contact you directly.

Venlesh said:

Our group is weird that way. If the Admiral is human, he might choose the -2 Fuel destinations (or the -3 fuel 3 space one) if he can. In that way, fuel will barely be in the red after two jumps, and the sympathizer is human by a non-critical resource (because, seriously, I don't think we've ever lost by having all the fuel destroyed).

Of course, it's not always an option. Sometimes the Barren Planets just don't show up, and sometimes the Admiral is a cylon.

Sinis said:

We have - a couple of times, once when both the President and the other cylon (me) were still unrevealed and the humans were going for the distance 8 jump. The Prez had checked my loyalty earlier so at the end gave me the Quorum card that allowed me, instead of the admiral, to pick-up three destination cards and choose which one ... so I chose the one that completed the jump, but used up all the fuel.

TomH said:

Well, I mean, it's been close, and I certainly think it's possible, but we've lost to nearly every other Cylon victory condition. I think the only ones we haven't lost to are fuel depletion and centurion boarding (in all the games we've played, there's never been a great opportunity for the cylon players to march the Centurions to the finish line, though we understand that they are a dire threat as well and treat heavy raiders/centurions accordingly).

There's been a few times when we've been at 1 fuel, but there's not much in the way of crises that lower fuel. For the most part, it's a pretty safe resource to bust, especially if you're looking to make a human sympathizer rather than a cylon one.