Doc, the Weasel said:

The sad thing there is that it really *could* have been, if there had just been a bit more material to work with. The Firefly/Serenity 'verse has as strong a following as Star Wars (if somewhat smaller in absolute numbers). The mechanics of the system it was built on worked well enough. Us RPers just aren't a huge market to start with, unfortunately.

borithan said:

I see RotJ Luke as a reasonably well trained Jedi, but his ability with the Force is a bit of a blunt instrument compared to the finely honed scalpel of his predecessors. Basically, Yoda knows that he and Kenobi have managed to give Luke a good strong foundation, and *enough* practical training that unless he gets himself killed, he'll at least have the *potential* to go out there and rebuild the Jedi Order. In that sense, he's a 'fully trained' Jedi Knight, even if he might not have passed the Tests just yet back when the Order was going strong. (Though, given how well he internalized the practicals of the Jedi Code, he just might have managed it.)

LethalDose said:

I hate to burst your bubble, but development of Saga Edition didn't *end* with the core rule book. In fact, there were newly designed subsystems included in almost every one of the 'splat books' you so fippantly dismiss.

Donovan Morningfire *is* listed in the credits of two of the Saga Edition books, The Unknown Regions, and Galaxy at War. If you're going to claim that it's 'core book or you don't matter', then you are (likely unintentionally) declaring your own opinions as even *less* meaningful than his because your only connection to the system's design is in reading the book and playing the game. All that while throwing a fit about how *he* isn't a "real dev".

So, yes, in all likelyhood he'll probably continue to call you out for being antagonistic when it's an accurate descriptor. On the other hand, if you want people to *stop* calling you out for your behavior, it's a pretty simple thing to do. Just change the behavior in question.

Voice said:

“That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

-P. C. Hodgell

Yes, he's in credited in two books, and in neither place is he credited as a developer. He's was and is not a developer on SE. It's not like this is hard.

And pointing it out doesn't invalidate anything I've said because I never claimed to be a dev. He did, which is misrepresenting his involvement to the point of it being a lie .

He knows he wasn't credited as a developer, and yet he made the claim anyway. If you want to defend him for lying, fine. But don't expect me to back off because you said it's mean or you don't like how I post.

And yes, I will be antagonistic toward posters who try to pass off claims that as truth when they know they are untrue and can easily be verified as being untrue. I find it insulting, I can't beleive you don't. Though, I'm pretty sure that you would be offended if someone you didn't like got caught like that.

Further, I've espoused very few opinions about SE here, and even fewer about the design decisions that went into them. Why the hell would I? This isn't an SE forum. Nothing I've said here has ever relied on me knowing more about the system than him, so none of my opinions here are in any way, shape, or form affected by validity the way you imply.

-WJL

ErikB said:

I want to participate in this threat, otherwise I feel wierd.

Droma said:

People adjust their plans all the time. I don't think FFGs publishing schedule is in any way fixed two and a half years ahead and people clearly want Jedi rules, so what is the problem?

The only question is, are FFG the kind of company interested in listening to their fans?

--

Speaking of Zack Snyder and the Magnificent 300 Jedi, if FFG wanted to do something to show that they recognise that two and a half years seems a heck of a long time to wait for Jedi, maybe they could do the Magnificent 300 Jedi roleplaying game.

Now, when I heared Mr. Snyder was supposed to be prepping this movie, I thought it was pretty interesting, both because a Jedi movie in the style of 300 or Sucker Punch could be a lot of fun, but also because it was said to be a side project, so those as were not keen on it could stick to the main movie series.

I understand Mr. Snyder has denied these rumours, but I don't think that has to stop us.

This would be an indie style self contained roleplaying game like The Mountain Witch, intended to allow one to play out the events of the movie Mr. Snyder made in an alternative universe.

The idea is that a team of Jedi, ideally numbering 7 but more practically equal to the number of players in the gaming group come togeather to face down a threat. I might suggest that creating this threat forms part of the game. So a group might decide that they are playing Jedi in hiding during the rise of the Empire, who tire of seeing the injustice wrought and decide to make a stand against it. Or maybe thousands of years ago the great heros of the Jedi face a mythic threat.

And this is it. You play out the story of the 7 Jedi in a session or two, and then, if you want, you play it again. Or don't, and go play something else.

So, there you have it, a self contained game intended to show they do care about getting people Jedi that can be published alongside the main series games, and that will have the side effect of allowing people to beta test the true Jedi force rules for when they are needed.

ErikB said:

Fine, we can include earthy Jedi as an option, then everyone can play what they want.

Voice said:

Or I'll just simply ignore his posts and skip over them in any thread I read that he's happened to post in.

As for not being a "real dev," well folks by the name of Rodney Thompson, Patrick Stutzman, Gary Astleford, Robert Wieland, and Sterling Hershey would probably disagree with LethalDose, since of those, only Rodney Thompson is credited as a Devleoper in the credits section, many of whom got "Additional Design" credits on books they worked on just as I did for the material that I developed, designed, and wrote for SWSE.

Of course, by his logic, Sterling Hershey, by far the most prolific writer for Star Wars RPG out there, doesn't count as a SWSE "dev" either since he's only listed as a "designer" in the various supplements he worked on, and wasn't involved in the initial Saga Edition core rulebook in any way, shape or form, even remarking how it felt wierd for him to be signing a book he didn't work on when I asked him to sign my copy of the Saga Edition core book at a prior GenCon (reminds me, I still need to find a way to get Chris Perkins' and Bill Slavicsek's signatures, as well as Stutzman's)

Plus, the material I've written has had a direct influence on the C-level canon, something that not many Star Wars fans can honestly lay claim to. Nothing world-shaking or ground-breaking (that's usually reserved for G-level canon anyway), but the fact remains that material I've written, including elements of descriptive fluff, have helped shape the Star Wars canon on some level in ways I didn't fully intend or really even anticipate. Had WotC decided to renew the license and keep publishing a Star Wars RPG, I might have made some more contributions, as Rodney certainly seemed pleased enough with my work to offer me a chance to write for D&D 4th Edition, something I elected to pass on due to my general unfamiliarity with 4e and the fact that it simply wasn't relevant to what I was playing or interested in playing; D&D has in general become irrelevant as I have found other fantasy-based RPGs that I feel do a better job of being an engaging RPG rather than a protracted tactical combat simulation.

So maybe the term "dev" isn't the best appelation in regards to my work on Saga Edition, but it does prove a handy short-hand for "Designer" and gets the point across pretty well, that I designed and developed material for a great RPG, with the rather amusing distinction that I took a character type that was pure suck from Day 1 of the core rulebook's release and gave them a much greater potential to be nearly Jedi-levels of awesome. After all, how many high-level (15+) Jedi could wrestle a Colossal-size Sith worm into total submission the way a player in GM Chris' Alternate Universe campaign could?

And if LethalDose has a problem with the simple fact that I've had the chance to make some meaingful contributions to the long legacy that is Star Wars RPGs and he hasn't… well, that's his problem.

ErikB said:

Just as an aside, what is your obsession with two and a half years? I don't want to sound rude and it makes me feel like a bad person asking it like this, but are you terminally ill or something? Do you know that you somehow will not be able to play the game in two and half years? Or are you just impatient?

Also, I think it is legitimate that the company could have their devolpment pipeline worked out to have plans two and a half years in advance, and such that changing is problematic. As a software developer I have seen similar project management techniques, and its actually fairly difficult to change that course. And in this particular case, the only logic I'm seeing as to "why" the course should be changed is one of impatience among fans. Not some technical/legal/creative problem.

Asking the question if FFG is the type to listen to their fans is kind of misleading. The bulk of fans can most likely be said to want "good rules" that cover the Star Wars spectrum. Not "fans want jedi" or "fans want smugglers," but rather "fans want everything done well." You have to look at the 3 books as a whole, not just "I want the jedi book asap" to understand this, so please step back and look at the big picture. We want good rules. These three books are going to use the same core mechanic (roll colored dice with funny symbols on them). For the most part, the "playing the game" chapter in these books is going to be 80% the same. Same success tables, same failure tables. Character sheets will probably share 80% of the same fields. Yes, there will be differences, but for the most part a character from one game can be imported into any other game. Therefore, players most likely want the three books to mesh together well. They want to avoid having to look up in some table how to convert a character from one system to another. They don't want to have to skew XP rewards across the different classes just because X isn't balanced properly to Y. This can be avoided if the books are written with respect ot the other games as they come out.

Now, this all said, how is it not logicial to start from the lowest point of the PCs power level and work up from there (with regard to system balance)? If the first book was keyed to creating jedi, they would already have to have in mind just how "powerful" low level smugglers or mid level soldiers should be in comparison. How would they have any sense of that? The short answer is they wouldn't, and while the jedi book would be nice, the other books would most likely suffer.

Now, why can't they put the jedi rules in this book? Simple, page limits. Realize, its not just jedi that are missing, but military careers as well. Did you know that if they take the starship section as it is in beta and not add to it, there are no stats for X-wings in EotE? All in all, there are probably about 100 pages of content EotE would need to be a more complete Star Wars game, and just adding that to this book wouldn't be appropriate.

Finally, asking for beta jedi rules is kind of a trick question. What book would these beta rules be for? The Jedi book thats still years off? That book will most likely have its own beta in due time, but until then, it wouldn't be appropriate to release some small booklet (remember, due to the license FFG has, full rules can't be on PDFs) that only contains part of those rules way ahead of schedule.

LethalDose said:

And this is why I openly state myself to be a playtester, rather than either pretending to be a dev (I wish… seriously, I'd love to be, but I'm not that good at writing, otherwise my freelance application might have succeeded), or a normal player (because that'd be just as dishonest really, as it'd imply I'm not slightly biased, which I am. There is stuff I dislike about the 40k + Star Wars games, but I wouldn't playtest for them if I didn't like them overall).

I agree with Lethal - trying to pass yourself off as a dev, when you aren't, is frankly insulting to the people who did work hard and get credited as devs, as you are trying to leach from their work and reputation for your own benefit.

So, like I say, given that no one is buying that two and half years doesn't seem like a heck of a long time to wait for Jedi, or that putting off thinking about it until then will make that game any better when it does arrive, when can we expect FFG to do the right thing by the community and get Jedi in to peoples hands?

MILLANDSON said:

See my post above regarding my involvement with the Saga Edition version of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game published by Wizards of the Coast. If you want to spilt hairs, then fine, I was officially a Designer for the Saga Edition role-playing game, and being pegged to Additional Design in the credits based on the senority of other Designers such as Sterling Hershey and Daniel Wallace. But to a lot of people, particularly those without an axe to grind, the term Desginer and Developer in regards to RPGs are pretty much interchangable.

Not once, ever , have I claimed to be a "developer" for Edge of the Empire or have any sort of special connection to the guys at FFG in regards to Edge of the Empire or any of their other Star Wars RPG product lines, past, present, or future. I have specicially referenced my time working on Saga Edition , and only Saga Edition . I've had PMs here asking for my thoughts on designing EotE, and I've replied that I was not involved in any, way, shape or form with EotE's development, and that my speculation about what went into the design process was exactly that, speculation.

Would I love a chance to work for Jay Little and FFG in "designing" additional material for their Star Wars product line? Hell's yes I would, but the simple fact is that for a freelancer without either a pre-existing connection to a game company (specifically, somone in the position of making the decision of whether a person is to be hired or not for a given product line) or a long history in the RPG industry as a freelancer, getting an RPG freelancing gig is incredibly difficult, and I know a few folks that have pretty much bowed out of RPG freelancing due to the inability to get a steady stream of work in that field. Because quite frankly, the pay for being a freelancer sucks given the amount of hours that can be put into devleoping, designing, and then delivering that material, often within a very tight window. And if you repeatedly miss deadlines, kiss a freelancer career good-bye, as no reputable company will want to touch you with a ten-foot pool.

Again, just to be absolutely 'effin clear, the only work I did and have every claimed to do regarding a Star Wars RPG was only for Wizards of the Coasts' Star Was Saga Edition.

TL,DR Version: LethalDose is way off base, but given his personal vendetta against me, that's not the least bit surprising.

ErikB said:

Actually, based on the posts of this thread I would say that most people are buying that the development time is appropriate, and don't believe that FFG is just putting it off. It's just a few of you that don't.

ErikB said:

Emphasis mine.

Thanks buddy. Thanks. Shows you that you don't pay any attention to those that are arguing with you here, or that you apparently wish to dehumanize those that disagree with you and not really call them people or consider that their opinions matter.

Plenty of people here with apparently some form of game development background have balked at that notion (at least Lethal Dose I think, sorry for speaking for you incorrectly if I'm wrong).

But yes, I "buy" the two and half year argument, that seems like a perfectly reasonable rate at which the jedi book comes out. I understand why the smuggler book would be first.

From there, the Smuggler book needs its own updates/books. So at least one equipment/advanced option/starship book, one module. Alright, those are two other books. Then the Soldier book comes out, with its own advanced options book and a module. Thats 5 more books beyond EotE right there that should come out before the jedi book. So 5 books in 2.5 years? 6 month cycles, seems fair enough to me.

And I love how the goal is just to get Jedi into people's hands, that you don't care about any other aspects of the material that would go with it. If you made a Jedi in EotE, how would you justify their obligation system? We don't even know if Jedi should have obligations like EotE characters should.

KommissarK said:

I think you are being impatient. We can bump those to two and a half years in the future to make room for the Jedi. I mean, as you say you don't mind waiting that long.

And as for why or how my experience working on Saga Edition might be relevant, it's because I've had to sit in the same seat as Jay Little and Sterling Hershey and Shane Lacy Hensley, and having to consider how the new material I was developing at that time would interact with other material within that framework, not only for my personal campaigns and my immediate group of players, but also for hundreds of strangers whom I will probably never meet, but will take what I've developed and use it in ways that were never intended, forcing me to have to consider how what this new material I'm developing will be used in context of not only the core rulebook but also any other supplements down the road.

Since most freelance designers/developers tend not to post on message boards, I thought maybe the point of view from somone that's been on the design/development side of an RPG line might be appreciated by some. But apparently that's not the case, which I guess explains why a lot of designers and developers, freelance or otherwise, don't post on the message boards for the games they've worked on.

As for the "dev" tag that's been applied to my name, like I said earlier, to many of the folks that I worked alongside with on supplements for Saga Edition, as well as to GM Chris and GM Dave of the Order 66 podcast and to a number of folks on other, far less hostile message boards than this one, I'm a Saga Edition "dev" simply for the fact that I developed material for Saga Edition.

ErikB said:

You're assuming I care about any particular system.

In fact, the game I want to play is the stormtrooper game, so I got no money in this whole argument. I don't really swing towards the smugglers or the jedi.

But what I do beleive, is that a game out in the wild needs support books to back it up. You can't just machine gun fire off 3 books with so much similar content, and then get back around to supporting each individual product line.

KommissarK said:

In all seriousness, it is always easier to wait for something you are not interested in.

Is there anybody who actually wants to play a Jedi who doesn't think two and a half years seems like a heck of a long time to wait?

Erik,

I understand that you're disappointed. I'm sure there are quite a few people out there that are. But we all must accept that fact that this is FFGs decision. If you don't like that decision, try writing a letter to FFG themselves. I don't know if you've noticed, but there is no moderator for these boards (although… if this thread continues to devolve, I'm sure we will get one). That means no one from the company is officially seeing your complaints. Try that route and see if you can get an official response to your request.

If not, I would then advise to search out another system to play. I know it sounds like a cop out answer, but I am serious. If FFG is not producing a game you want to play, why invest the time and effort into complaining about it? SImply leave and take your hard earned money elsewhere. I did that with Privateer Press years ago and Games Workshop before that. I won't even purchase PP's Iron Kingdoms game. I use Dresden Files RPG rules set for that setting now.

ErikB said:

I think you will find that almost no one on this board will say that they disagree with FFG’s decision. That would be dissention from the company. Truth be told if Edge of the Empire and the Jedi book came out at the same time, the Jedi book would be selling significantly faster than EotE. The people on this board who are adamant that FFG is doing the right thing would if only able to buy one, buy the Jedi book first.

The notion that FFG is working on the Jedi book is silly to me. Sure they are writing the many important aspects of the book but the rules I am guessing are done. I am confident that they have had the rules worked out for a long time now regarding these three books. I don’t believe this is a top up approach but rather a silly gimmick regarding the original trilogy and releasing the books to look like them.

Donovan Morningfire said:

In regards to Donovan Morningfire. I don’t think he would be going around on posting boards saying they are a developer (especially when it is so easy to find out) if it was not true. This just looks like a witch hunt to me that has no bearing on the subject. It does not mean I particularly agree with Donovan’s position on Jedi but I have no reason to doubt his legitimacy.

Darian Ocana said:

All this really means is that a bad decision wins in the gaming industry. I don’t think that is right or healthy for our industry and the gaming community. Sure I will play other games and I am sure I will play EotE (never said I wouldn’t) however, It does mean that we have the right and the responsibility to be adamantly vocal regarding the game.

In many ways, those of us who want a Jedi in the game are being told that we are getting Rogue Trader and we need to be silent because in two and a half years, our time will come. As someone who has been involved with marketing, I can tell you that the old phrase “the customer is always right” is not just a phrase but a statistic. For every one person that likes a product, they will generally tell one other person. 1-1, for everyone who really likes a product it’s a 1-5. Five people will benefit by one person being happy. Unfortunately it gets much worse when people are not happy with a product. If a person is unhappy with a product/service it is a 1-5. That is five people will be informed and if someone is really unhappy (which I am sure many will be with a no Jedi book) it goes to 1-20.

This information was originally collect I believe by a refrigerator company years ago and has become a reevaluated statistic for many companies and corporations. Even the FCC uses these statistics based on complaints. I am sure that there will be many Amazon reviews that will say “liked it but there are no Jedi” followed with a 3 star review.

Dance Commander said:

If you saw the force rules as they were initially presented in the EotE beta, I'm not sure you would have that same opinion. By all means they needed some work, and before any more powers are added, there needs to be some meaningful considerations of scale.

Perhaps you disagree that this is actually the case or not. But would you not agree that if the rules are not developed yet, a bottom up approach to development would be wisest? Understand, that while you accuse someone like me of being a shill for FFG (I will admit, my purcahses of their games has probably helped put some of their children through college, as any look at my bookshelf would tell you), I see someone like you as someone overly cynical, not willing to accepet a certain possibilities because it fails to make something look bad. As far as I cen tell, you're coming into this discussion, saying something that paints "the big evil corporation" as holding out on customers, and feeling smug and edgy about it. But is there any proof besides what your gut is telling you? Sure, they probably have a broad idea of what the "advanced" force rules are going to look like, or the talents/abilities the jedi classes are going to get, but I'm not sure I agree that they've worked out a finite XP value to equate them to EotE characters, or the finer points about how much soak/stress they can suffer. As I raised earlier, its entirely likely the Jedi won't operate under the Obligation system as it is set up in EotE, which is used to create a farily central part of EotE's narrative for the PCs (its a system where PCs can gain starting benefits for their characters at the cost of eventual roleplaying penalties, and it helps set the stage for certain scenes by having the obligations of certain PCs rear its head during play).

But can you really claim they're sitting on the rules and just holding off on publishing with a straight face? I'll end once again by saying the EotE beta does a pretty good job proving such rules are not 100% ready.

KommissarK said:

No. The best way to make a system for playing Jedi is to make a system for playing Jedi, not a system for something else and hope you can bolt on superpowers at a later date.

What successful examples of retooling a system for a radically different genre can you think of?