Darth Sarcastic said:

Over on the d20 Radio Forums, there's a few folks, namely myself and Awayputyrwpn, who are working on homebrew material to cover Jedi PCs. So the process has already started. And given the very sharm collection of minds over there, once things get ironed out, they're bound to be pretty kick-ass material.

Donovan Morningfire said:

A few assumptions that need ironing out in your post. First of all, I am not a young’in. I have played an excessive amount of different RPGs and I also remember reading the star wars books in the early 90’s. I had the original VHS’s of the movie way back in the 80’s. So with that said, I “Get” star wars. I also am not a fan of the WEG’s as I have said before. I thought the game was not that fun, clunky and I am not a fan of the homage to it in the new EotE game. I am sure there are a lot of people who like(ed) it, I for one did not and I thought Star Wars Saga Edition was a fantastic game. (I can’t wait for the “You should play that then” response)

Second of all it comes down to responsibility of owning such a license. Now if Darth Sarcastic is right and there is a Jedi Class in the book, then this is all moot. However, if I am only able to tell a space cowboy story, then in my opinion and the opinion of my gaming group and a few play testers I know, then this is not a complete game without a firm Jedi presence. It should not take a gaming site of fans to make a fundamental part of the game that Paid employees are there to do.

Simply put, I should not be done with my dissertation and successfully have defended it in the time that it takes a paid company to put out a Jedi book (which should have been done in the first place). Let’s face it, if people did not think it was an important part of the story from the start, then this thread simply Would Not Be Here. Nor will this thread go away when the book comes out.

Now it is clear that you love WEGs and you are really looking forward to Space Cowboys. That is awesome that you are getting what you want from FFG. For the rest of us who want to tell a different story (a Non Fire Fly Story) then it would seem that the answer is for us to suck it up and that is not good marketing at all in my opinion.

Darth Sarcastic said:

Yeah, Christian (Chris? this guy ) made comments about support for other time periods in response to questions, but largely just said that what you see in the 3 core products can be translated to other eras. It was pretty clear that the 3 core books are/will be 'set' in the Rebellion Era.

It was also where he explained very rationally that they didn't want to repeat the errors of previous Star Wars RPGs and try to be all things to all players. Because it made for $h!tty games.

I am, admittedly, paraphrasing there.

Unfortunately, this logic is completely lost on some potential consumers who found teh interwebz and decided to use it to scream for another crap game with Jedi now, instead of a good game with Jedi later.

-WJL

Dance Commander said:

If I'm looking forward to playing a game where the story is about characters like Boba Fett, Han Solo, IG-88, and Lando Calrissian, how is that not Star Wars? I understand your point that Jedi play a big part in the Star Wars universe. However if they don't happen to be in a Star Wars game/story, it's a huge and false leap to say that game/story is no longer about Star Wars. Details and rules for playing Clone Troopers don't appear to be included in EotE either even though they are an important part of Star Wars. Does that make the game, "not Star Wars", also?

FFG has never said there will not be Jedi. They are only delaying Jedi. Until then you can have things like force sensitive, you know, semi-Jedi.

If you disagree with what FFG is doing I can only see a couple things to do. I guess you can choose not to play the game. Or you can choose to purchase the license from FFG and do your own Star Wars game that has Jedi in the very first book released. Until then, please give FFG a chance to do what they wish with their license without flying off into a rage. You have Jedi-dominant WEG, Jedi-dominant SAGA d20, and possibly even Jedi-dominant FFG Star Wars 2015+ all for your own. Let us that like the path FFG is following at least have a couple years in peace. All the years before and after appear to be molded the way you like them. We just want these two.

mouthymerc said:

aramis said:

The only reason that WEG ultimately lost the license was they made some very bad investment decisions in addition to having a run of licensed products that flopped.

Dance Commander,
Never implied you were a so-called "young 'in," but rather just offering some perspective. I'm a big ol' Jedi fan myself, but I'm also willing to accept that FFG wants to spend a little more time to try and get things right instead of just dropping Jedi in and hoping for the best. I'd much rather wait to have a solid set of official rules that are playable, fun, and don't break the game than have a bunch of slapped-together crap that ruins what promises to be a really fun and engaging system.

Yes I too want to see something where Jedi do not overwhelm other characters. D20 was all right and I enjoyed it for D&D but the one thing I constantly heard about WotC's Star Wars was that it was D&D in space. Force use was One Skill to Rule Them All. Every new book that came out, pratically, increased the versatility of the Use the Force skill. Is it any wonder that people wanted to play them? They were the wizards of Star Wars. I want a game where there is some parity with all character in one form or another. So if that means waiting a while longer I am fine with that. We've got Force powers so it is not a total wash.

By and large, if you can make a game where no one can play a Jedi, you can **** well make a game where everyone has to play a Jedi, and therefore Jedi can be as awesome as the people who want to play Jedi want them to be without them overshadowing the characters of the people are not playing Jedi, on the grounds that there are no people who are not playing Jedi.

I mean, if you think people who want to play Jedi will suck it up and play in your non-Jedi game, you can suck it up and play in their all Jedi game.

mouthymerc said:

This. Right here is why I think that a Jedi character - a full on knight such as Obi-Wan, Qui-gonn, Anakin, etc. will be a character with a higher amount of experience. To use a clone Wars example - the first time we see Ahsoka on screen, she is a new Jedi character with only the starting 100 (roughly) experience. She has trained some skills, has some basic grasp of the force, but as the show progresses we see her go from neophyte padawan to a capable jedi, on the cusp of knighthood, undertaking missions without her master.

Also, if you watch that show, you will see all manner of characters being on equal levels of skill as the Jedi characters. From pirates and bounty hunters, to Clone Troopers.

it all boils down to training. Jedi are taken in as very young children and have non-stop regimented training till the day they are apprenticed, at which point the training continues. Where as one could assume that most other characters having a more or less normal childhood will not have spent as much time "training" and learning. I know as a kid, I played a lot with toys, it wasn't school all the time, broken up by meditation (though the meditation could have helped).

If it means that Jedi can be more powerful, but they have to spend a heck of a lot more experience to do it, I'm fine with that, not to mention, it SUITS the Jedi order.

Also, I don't see the Force and Destiny book being a stand alone product so much. There would be ONE Jedi class, with multiple specialties, which wouldn't really adventure well with a Dathomir Witch, Sorcerer of Tund, Jenssarai (sp) or Aang-tii monk. They don't get along all that well. Not to mention, if they had a full force user class and Jedi was a specialty, people will be livid. The Force and Destiny may very well end up being a supplementary book.

Time and patience will tell. To those of you who must have a Jedi, I'm sorry you don't get what you want. I, however, and very glad I seem to be getting the game *I* want.

@DanceCommander

The problem I have with “want a Jedi, build it yourself” is that it lacks in my opinion, a fundamental understanding of empathy towards other gaming groups. For example. My Star Wars game would revolve around a New Jedi Order game that takes place during an invasion. It would be an all Jedi Group that uses high powered fantasy combat and lightsabor fights. The response to this would be “make it up”. That is not really my job if I am buying a book now is it? I will gladly make up my story, and my villains, it is up to the company to provide the rules. Since they are choosing to provide the rules for Jedi two years from now, they are not especially accommodating to those of us who do not really want to play a cowboy game.

Then just don't buy the book. Consider Edge and Force two separate games. Just strike the first one. I mean, you're not going around saying "**** it, those idiots are publishing Only War when they should be making Force and Destiny!" either, are you? In fact, there are probably a hundred game companies that are right at this very moment not making a game about jedi. Just consider FFG to be one of them.

And then, in two years time, it's your day - there's an entire game only about force users. An entire game that perfectly supports your idea of a campaign. No compromises to make the force-insensitives feel like they're useful when surrounded by a group of jedi. No 3/4 of character types that can't use the force at all and are absolutely useless for your game. No adventures that break down when the writer didn't anticipate that even hand-cuffed on a sail barge, characters might not be completely at the GM's mercy. And, possibly best of all: No teething troubles that generally plague every first edition of a new system. Congratulations, your ideal game has arrived.

@ErikB

By and large, if you can make a game where no one can play a Jedi, you can **** well make a game where everyone has to play a Jedi, and therefore Jedi can be as awesome as the people who want to play Jedi want them to be without them overshadowing the characters of the people are not playing Jedi, on the grounds that there are no people who are not playing Jedi.

I mean, if you think people who want to play Jedi will suck it up and play in your non-Jedi game, you can suck it up and play in their all Jedi game.

Um… yeah…? They not only can make such a "Jedi only"-game, they've already announced their intention to do so.

Cifer said:

There is that saying that British people think thirty miles is a long way, and Americans think thirty years is a long time.

I think it is largely true. Only in these days of instant gratification, everyone thinks two years is a long time.

mouthymerc said:

Being one of the Saga Edition developers (even if only on a few things), I can honestly tell you that Saga Edition wasn't quite that bad. Most of the setting books did expand on the Force, as Force-users were big deals in those settings, such as KOTOR, Legacy Era (the Dark Horse comic series), and Clone Wars. Rebellion Era didn't have huge piles of Force-stuff, and neither did Scum & Villainy, Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue, or Unknown Regions; those had at most a new Force Tradition, but the rest had a couple talents, if that. Admittedly, the Jedi Academy Training Manual did offer up a great deal more power to Jedi characters by way of Ligthsaber Form powers and specialty lightsaber crystals, but it wasn't every book in the Saga Edition line making Jedi more and more poweful with each release. Hell, I ran a Jedi using only core rulebook material in a SWSE campaign, and he was plenty powerful enough using just powers and talents from the core rulebook where everyone else was using species, talents, and feats from other books.

Sadly, Use the Force became a glaring example of the fundamental flaws of how Saga Edition chose to treat skills, namely the inherent power of the Skill Focus feat, which would allow any skill, not just Use the Force, to become easily capable of overwhelming an NPC's defenses at low levels. Heck, I've seen Scoundrels with Skill Focus (Initiative) and the Trick Step talent be able to treat just about any other foe as being flat-footed, something that can get nasty with the right combination of additional talents, to say nothing of a flat-footed enemy being easier to hit and a flat-footed Jedi unable to bring their better defensive tricks to bear.

Also sadly, I don't think there's every going to be a true mechanical parity between Jedi and other character types. Force powers tend to be a lot broader and versatile in what they can accomplish. One of Saga Editons' most broketastic powers was Move Object, found in the core rulebook, and only saw greater use in play than than Force Lightning (probably pound-for-pound one of the nastier Force powers, also a corebook power) because of the dark side cost associated with that power.

The best thing that I think FFG can do from a mechanical perspective is what they've done so far with Force Powers, and that is to keep them seperated based upon theme while also making it costly to advance them. This approach worked pretty well for WEG, though sadly WEG's core system had a fundamental flaw in it from the start.

Over on the d20 Radio forums, I posted up what I saw when doing some high-end stress tests during the EotE open beta period in regards to Force-users. I thnk it proved pretty eye-opening for some of the folks there that wanted to create homebrew Jedi material with an eye towards getting as high a Force Rating as possible, with Force Rating 4 or 5 (something that would be the end result of one poster's idea of having a Jedi career with a handful of Jedi speciailizations), and just how poweful that could be in EotE.

My best thought for keeping Jedi in FFG's system from being too powerful is to quite frankly prevent them from going beyond a Force Rating of 5 without a hell of a lot of work, and even that Force Rating 5 should taking a lot of hoops to jump through. Leave the Force Rating 6 and 7 to such exceptional plot-powered folks such as Yoda, Palpatine,or Grand Master Luke Skywalker.

Cifer said:

Also, assuming this mythical 'two years' passes before everyone dies of old age, while it may be the third Star Wars RPG FFG have put out, I strongly suspect it will be the broke ass first edition of their Jedi game.

@ErikB

And do you think that for that occasion they'll throw out everything that worked in the first and second game, including the force mechanisms already present in them?

ErikB said:

I've given this some thought, and there may some merit to this 'instant gratification' arguement. I mean, it's also going to be two years until the new Star Wars MOVIE comes out

DISNEY'S TAKING TO LONG!!! I WANT IT NOW!!! ANY STAR WARS PRODUCT BETWEEN NOW AND THEN THAT ISN'T A MOVIE IS AUTOMATICALLY CRAP AND THEY'RE IGNORING WHAT THEIR FANS WANT!!!!

etc, etc…

[/sARCASM]

-WJL

Cifer said:

The games where no one will actually play Jedi?

Yup. Exactly those games, where people play characters that are created, grow with experience, encounter enemies, fight them, travel the galaxy, obtain and use equipment, fly starships, perhaps even use the force…

Certainly the way that I would test rules for playing Jedi is to make a game where no one plays Jedi and have people play that. I see no way that a game where no one plays Jedi could fail to produce good rules for playing Jedi.

I would expect that we'll see a beta book for the force in about 18-20 months. And for Age of Rebellion in about 6-8 months.

aramis said:

Honestly i would be surprised if we see beta versions of Age of Rebellion and Force & Destiny. I think mose of the feedback they needed came from EotE's beta. I think the playtesting for those books may be enough.

Kallabecca said:

Yep. The rule of thumb is: If it was in the movies, it's set in stone. If it was created in any other source material, it should be worked with, but Lucas himself can cancel it on a whim if some piece of story strikes him as more interesting without it, or actually contradicting it.

KommissarK said:

Please show us the Star Wars RPG rules where full blown Jedi rules were included from day one where a Jedi didn't *often* totally outclass every other character type. All the prior Star Wars RPG rules I'm aware of included Jedi from day one, and they *all* ran into the problem where a Jedi of equivalent 'cost' (XP cost, level, whatever) got *much* more powerful and capable than non-Jedi characters very quickly.

It seems we've tried your espoused method *several* times in the past (WEG, OCR, RCR, & Saga), and the results have been less than stunning. How about we let them try a *different* method, where they get to look at how basic, low-power Force abilities work in *actual* play before trying to figure out how to balance the 'big guns' effectively?

Remember, even with the limited rules in the EotE Beta, you can make a character who is capable of most of what we see Luke do across the entire original trilogy.

x13phantom said:

I'll just quietly QFT this post.

I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with my statement here but I’m okay with that. This notion that FFG is working on the Jedi to make them magically balanced over the next two years is kind of funny. (I hope Jedi are true to canon and myth rather than being magically balanced myself. Never had a problem with them in any RPG of mine.) .) I don’t need endless examples of how they were broke, I just told my players “No” when they were doing something un-sportsman like.

There is no way that FFG bought a multimillion dollar license and is trying to figure out how to balance them right now. My gut feeling is that they already know exactly what the Jedi look like. If the Jedi came out today or two years from now they are probably going to be exactly what they were designed to be a year ago. My problem is FFG is focusing their first Star Wars release on more of a niche market (Cowboys in space) than Jedi and my belief is that they are doing this because of the movie in 2015 rather than what their fans wants.

Sturn said:

My response to this is wow…wow. So a few years back I told a scoundrel game using Star Wars Saga edition. I told the players that it would be Scoundrels only. There were no problems at all (after all, we had the rules to play Jedi but our group wanted to try something different this time around). At no time during that game did I say to myself or on a posting board “man, this game is going well, I don’t think anyone in the world should be able to play a Jedi in their game ( Officially) because my preference is a scoundrel game.” Sorry to say but that is what is being suggested.

I had the luxury of being able to choose my game style and FFG is in many ways taking that away. Sure I could “Make it up” and house rules it. I could spend Hours doing FFG’s job. That is not the point and that is why in my opinion they being incredibly disrespectful as a game publisher. Again my opinion.

In truth, I am speaking with the fervor of quite a few people I know regarding this no Jedi decision .

Not sure why some of my text turned black. Very strange.