Has anyone yet made the point that the core book is already a massive 448-page, sixty-dollar tome with practically no military or Jedi material? So my question is:

Where did you expect them to put the Jedi material?

I've always considered my 5th Hero Edition core book to be extremely large for a gaming book, being 2 inches thick and is 370 pages long*. The EotE corebook is core book >20% longer than that! There's no room for anything else. FFG's putting a lot of effort into each game in turn, fully fleshing out the three aspects of the SW Universe in turn, instead of glossing over all three aspects in a single product. It adresses a long standing problem with the SW games. Further, they've made it clear that they understand that some players want Jedi, it's just not in this book.

When you look at it in this light, I think it becomes more clear that the crux of the criticism here isn't that the dev's aren't doing it right , it's that they aren't doing it right now .

And the solution there is just patience.

Just some food for thought.

-WJL

*The physical production value of this particular Hero book was pretty impressive and used a very heavyweight paper, which probably has some influence on it's thickness.

LethalDose said:

Online as a beta?

LethalDose said:

Well, yes, it is 2013. What happened last week is old news.

ErikB said:

But thats the thing, Star Wars isn't just about being a jedi. And most certainly, I would say the bigger outcry would be if the system supported jedi/force users only, as that seems far more heavy handed than to say "oh hey, its set in the rebellion era (you know, the time period most Star Wars fans ar familiar with?), most jedi are dead or hiding, sorry."

Also, there are rules for the force in the book, and most likely in the second book as well. I fail to see how that doesn't help them get feedback on the matter.

The issue isn't so much on how to make jedi. I imagine its quite easy with what they have. Its about keeping jedi in line with everything else. Or at least, suitably close (I'm fine with an argument that balance is not needed). The point is more that something that threatens a jedi should at least allow a non-jedi a chance.

KommissarK said:

Lord Nikon said:

ErikB said:

Lord Nikon said:

Its a giant loop of nothingness…

Which, and make no mistake here, will continue until people can play Jedi.

Well if effort is applied to actually doing something about it, instead of demanding (or crying about it) from FFG, there could be a community built Jedi to test play and use.

But then you run into a similar problem as was seen in the WH40K lines Inquisitor's Handbook vs. the Blood of Martyrs book. Admitadly, one was not actually written initially by FFG (if I recall Black Industries did the initial work on the IH until they folded, they might of published it too).

Anyway, the point is that these were both books in the same product line (Dark Heresy), and both books contained rules for a class of the same name, "Sister of Battle," a much loved career by many of the community (not quite the same obsession as many have with Jedi, but I attribute that to the size of the Star Wars fandom. Being 10000% larger by population does wonders for exposure). The classes as they were seen across the two books were wildly different, with little concern for similarities (IH started with primitive armor and weapons, the BoM version was given a highly effective suit of power armor and one of the best types of assault rifles in the game, not to mention all the support they needed resource wise). I personally don't want to weigh in on which was better (both have issues - IH made a bit of a conceptual mistake with the fluff by how it branched the career, and it was all sorts of "meh", the BoM version is one of the greatest examples of power creep from books I have ever seen), but the point I'm trying to make is that this has caused some confusion in the system, especially regarding some of the finer points of the rules. For example, in the IH version, there is wording present that makes a Battle Sister lose some of her class abilities if she suffers from too many corruption points. The same wording is not present in the Blood of Martyrs variant. Other rules supplements modify the Battle Sister, but were published before the BoM came out, do they now modify the BoM version as well?

The point I'm trying to raise is that a stopgap solution is not healthy for the system either. House rules have the benefit of easily saying "how things work at this table." Its quite easy to look at a rule book, and to consider ones own house rules, and judge how to go from there. Its much harder if you have two different rulebooks in the same setting, or slightly similar setting. It becomes less clear what should override what, and overall, the quality of the system is degraded.

I think jedi are important enough to the setting to justify waiting with them. There are most likely problems that do need to be sussed out, especially with regards to balance (where does the EotE system break down with high level play, how do PCs scale with XP, where should a Jedi "land" with regards to all this, what are interesting talents a jedi could have access to, writing up whole chapters of fluff to give proper deference to the jedi/sith/other mentalities, more fleshed out suggestions to the GM on how to handle turning to the dark side) to justify putting that book off.

KommissarK said:

What's the difference, its your table, just decide on your own what works and what doesn't.

Seems to me that people mostly like the setup because it puts off having to worry about your character bein overshadowed by the jedi until some point in the future, which, given that this is 2013 and things move fast, may as well be never.

Lord Nikon said:

Because sometimes all you have to go on is your gut. Sometimes you're presented with two equally valid, and interesting, but apparently equivilent rulings. Now, possibly, due to inexperience or odd rules mechanics, it could turn out that one ruling is actually worse than another (lets say it combos with some other effect and gives the PC another turn or something). Having either wholly written house rules that bypass all of that, or having well written rules can prevent this.

The problem is that poorly written, disjoined rules written years apart from each other does not do as well a job.

ErikB said:

So what does that make your rehash of a complaint about a fundamental design decision EotE that started in September of 2012? Neolithic?

LethalDose said:

Where did you expect them to put the Jedi material?

Online as a beta?

-WJL

@ cparadis - Haha. Thanks for pointing that out. I hate posting then realizing there are misspellings.

The problem I have with “want a Jedi, build it yourself” is that it lacks in my opinion, a fundamental understanding of empathy towards other gaming groups. For example. My Star Wars game would revolve around a New Jedi Order game that takes place during an invasion. It would be an all Jedi Group that uses high powered fantasy combat and lightsabor fights. The response to this would be “make it up”. That is not really my job if I am buying a book now is it? I will gladly make up my story, and my villains, it is up to the company to provide the rules. Since they are choosing to provide the rules for Jedi two years from now, they are not especially accommodating to those of us who do not really want to play a cowboy game.

It could just as easily be suggested that for those who do not like Jedi in their Star Wars game, can gladly play Rogue Trader and tell their wild west blaster narrative with that system and call it star wars. After all, just make it up. The problem here is that since those who are “content” with the status quo are getting what they want (no Jedi’s, Cowboys in space), it is us who are being trouble makers, naysayers, immature, impatient etc. In a sense, it would seem that the community itself is vilifying those who want a Jedi in their Star Wars game earlier than two years. I simply find that behavior weird.

I find it even more weird that we are having a discussion about a Star Wars RPG and why it should have Jedi in it. That is mind blowing. Simply put, I get that FFG has a gimmick in mind (the books are like the trilogy) but I find it absurd and so does my gaming group.

LethalDose said:

I am fairly sure I'd be happy with rules online as a beta. You wouldn't want to play a Jedi in Edge of the Empire anyway. They would just overshadow the other PCs!

You think the complaining is bad now wait until the jedi book comes out and the jedi are comparable to a character with the same xp, Instead of being unstoppable.

Dance Commander said:

Well, the arguement is less "Should there be Jedi?" but more "Should there have been Jedi from Day One?"

There's no doubt that there will be Jedi in FFG's Star Wars RPG, as they've announced a core rulebook dedicated to playing Jedi. The only problem for some folks is that said book is slated for 2015, so we're probably looking at two and a half years (assuming the core books all get released in the 2nd quarter of their respective years). Some of us are cool with waiting, others aren't. Not saying either side is necessarily more in the right in the others, but given WEG was able to have a pretty darn successful run with a Star Wars RPG that pretty much didn't feature Jedi as the stars of the game (and in fact had very little straight-up Jedi support given the volume of supplemants they produced), there is precedent for a Star Wars RPG that doesn't have a huge amount of Jedi material right out the gate. And some folks still have fond memories of WEG and consider their version of Star Wars to be the only version worth playing and have zero interest in what WotC did or what FFG might do.

Odds are good that FFG knew that folks would balk at the lack of a strong Jedi presence in the opening book for the game, particularly given the success of The Clone Wars TV series, which primarily focuses on Jedi heroes, and the generally iconic nature of the Jedi. As I noted in a prior post, FFG has a particular vision in mind for their approach to the Star Wars game, and we'll probably never hear all the reasons for that decision. One particularly popular thought was that FFG wanted to get a stable core mechanic in place before introducting a character type that has a history of stealing the spotlight from other players and pushing the rules up to (and often right past) the breaking point. For those of us that bought the Beta book, that hesitation proved wise as the initial Force system and Lightsaber stats were amazingly broketastic, issues that have largely been resolved (we hope).

Just out of interest, what other entertainment products coming out in 2015 are people looking forward to?

ErikB said:

Yeah, I never said anything like that…

ErikB said:

Well, FFG would be fools to give away Jedi rules for free, given the obvious high demand such things have.

A friend of mine brought up that FFG could very well be sitting tight on the news that EotE could very well have some basic material for Jedi, waiting until it gets closer to the actual releae date to say "Hey, guess what guys? You can play a Jedi in this game. Not a full-blown Jedi Knight, but a struggling Jedi-in-training on the run from the Empire."

I honestly don't think it's likely, but it does remain a possiblity.

Then again, just house rule in a Lightsaber skill (easy enough to do, with suggestion already given in the Beta book on how to do so), pick-up the Force-Sensitive Exile and some Force Powers, and you've got the working fundamentals of a Jedi character, that being a lightsaber-wielding Force-user. You're not gonna be a powerhouse like the Jedi of the Clone Wars were (with the ones we mostly see being fully-trained Knights), but you are a "Jedi" in spirit if not in mechanics.

LethalDose said:

BAM. There it is.

Donovan Morningfire said:

So true! Better to have no Jedi than those Jedi.

Also, I wonder how much of this is WEG bias. WEG Star Wars was the second RPG I ever played way back in the day. My buddies and I were playing it four months before FFG announced their version of Star Wars. On the one hand, maybe since I've seen it work*, I don't worry about it. On the other hand, maybe the rationalizations I made as a kid playing WEG have colored me to a certain way of thinking.

I'd be interested to hear from hardcore WEG fans that number themselves among those very upset that there are no Jedi (that we know of) in Edge.

*You could be a Failed Jedi in WEG, which would be pretty comparable to what you can do in Edge.

cparadis said:

It could also be backlash about how overpowering Jedi PCs could be in the various WotC games. GM Dom mentioned this fact in the post-show discussion of the Celebrity Live Play Episode 2, and how a lot of SWd20 games simply became "watch the Jedi hog the spotlight" after a while, with the peroid of time depending on which d20 version you're playing.

Then again, WEG wasn't perfect when it came to Force-users, Jedi or not. The Force-users just didn't have as much focus was all.

I. J. Thompson said:

Again, yes, what other products releasing in two and a half years time are you looking forwards to?

And really, WEG was all about the Jedi spotlight hogging.

ErikB said:

I agree. When playing a JEDI, in WEG, it was their show. But really any edition, the JEDI is going to the spotlight hog. Unless you have a really good experienced player, who allows the rest of the group to take the spotlight as well.

A GM who knows his/her players' strengths and weaknesses can adjust for any power disparities. Just split 'em up. That's why Luke was on the Death Star II at the climax of the campaign, and not on Endor wasting stormtroopers…

Lord Nikon said:

I'd actually disagree, mostly on the strength of having played Jedi in WEG campaigns where they didn't "hog" the spotlight, at least in a mechanical sense.

But a large part of that was that said campaigns didn't go outside the design paradigm that WEG was built on. Frankly, the devs at WEG (among whom was Bill Slavicsek) had intended that players would make characters play them for anywhere between 10 to 20 sessions, and then retire those characters once the campaign story arc was done. In that respect, particularly if they didn't have access to a master to reduce the training costs on raising their Force skills, then Jedi weren't super-powerful demigods.

The problem came when people started playing the same characters every week for months on end. And once your Force-user gets to the point where they can reliably hit the activation difficulties on their powers… well, then it becomes the all-Jedi show. I've said so myself, as I've seen first-hand the drastic change in how powerful a Jedi PC can be in WEG once they reach about 5D in their Force skills, or at least in Control and Sense when they've also got a lightsaber, given how broketastic the Lightsaber Combat power could be once you had a few dice to spare after taking into account the multiple action penalty; it got to the point where lightsaber duels were more like Tae Kwon Leep bouts, with whoever got in the first hit was the winner.

Maybe I'm being foolishly optimistic, but I'm hoping that Jay Little and his merry motley of maniacs and monkeys are keeping this bit of history in mind, and trying to make accomodations so that, at least mechanically, Jedi PCs don't hog all the spotlight.

In terms of hogging the spotlight regarding the story and adventure, that's more of an issue with the way the GM is handling things, though sadly Jedi do have a tendency to attract the spotlight anyway because of the general mystique and aura of "hey, those guys are cool!" that surrounds them. But again, there's not a whole lot that FFG can do on that angle, as Jedi Knights are what they are, and there's a lot of gamers that saw Star Wars as children and were pretty impressed by all the cool stuff they've seen Jedi Knights do over the course of the films.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I hear ya Donno.. Oddly, the first Star Wars I saw as kid was Empire in the theatres, and loved it. I was the one kid who enjoyed being the "bad guys". So when the prequel movies came out and characters like Dooku showed up, and showed how evil Palps really was, and how he managed to guide Anakin to the darkside, I was even more in love with the Sith or at least the darkside of the force. I always cheered on the back guys, from star wars to watching WWF wrestling as a kid, I cheered on the Heels. Anyhow, off track I know. Back on topic.

I have say for all the times we played WEG, Jedi always dominated the game. It got to the point, everyone played a Jedi, just so they could be in the spotlight, and the game became, bleh. I didn't play OCR much, but did RCR and SaGa, and Jedi always stood out far beyond what the rest can do. I always resolved this by talking to the player and told him, play a Jedi, like a Jedi, and try to resolve things in other ways before resorting to Forcepowers and Lightsabers. I also gave him my copy of Powers of Jedi book to read and after reading, he saw the class in a whole new light.

LethalDose said:

In my opinion many of those who are toting the line for “FFG is doing everything right” are as happy as a clam that they are getting cowboys in space for their first book. As excited as I am to see the game in my hand, I do not think (again my opinion) that they are delivering a Star Wars product. The cowboy’s in space can just as easily be done with Rogue Trader. After all “Just make it up”. Heck, it can even be done with the Serenity RPG.

For those of us who do not want to spend endless hours making up Jedi rules (and not getting paid for it) we would like our Star Wars book to have that emphasized element in it. So to reiterate on this statement, No I don’t think they are doing it right. They are making a game about the fringe, which is more niche than Jedi in my opinion.

I would use this example to describe it. Those who are fine with just getting cowboys in space are pleased(full/stuffed/bursting) with what the product is providing. Others, like myself who equate Star Wars with a strong Jedi theme are (hungry/unsatisfied/famished) with this product. With that said, it is a lot easier to shun away people who are hungry when you are full and don’t care. Just my thoughts on it.

Not going to lie, I do have some schadenfreude for this product. FFG should know better.

If I remember the video of the Beta release at Gen-con…it was said that EoE's timeline would be going forward from roughly Revenge of the Sith and that the Force chapter in the Beta was merely a place holder. The FFG rep also pointed out that while EoE would take place from Sith forward there was nothing that said you couldn't play a campaign set during the Golden Age of the Sith or during the new comicbook series with Luke's great-great-great grandson…Cade. He also pointed out that the Jedi book slated for 2015 would expand upon the Jedi/Sith. With all that being said, I would infer that EoE might include a "Generic" Jedi class…if nothing else than to give those who want to play Jedi..a Jedi.

Also, I have seen on many other forums for many other RPGs and Genres…if the company didn't put something people wanted to see in the game, inventive players lept into action. So I say, IF…IF…FFG does not include Jedi…wait a week…two maybe…I guarantee at least three people will have a working Jedi class or classes posted. In fact that happened on the Beta forums…a few people said "What…no Jedi? Hang on…" and a day or two later they posted something they threw together.

So I think patience is the key. Patience..let's see what FFG puts (or doesn't) in the core book. Patience…let's see how long after that a couple of our fellow posters rectify that situation.

Dance Commander said:

But by the same token, there have been plenty of stories in the EU, stories that very much have their fans, where Jedi are trivial factor, if they appear at all.

For some of us older fans, who recall the days when Sith was just a title and not the name of an entire Order of dark side Force-users, and before the utter proliferation of all things Jedi, EotE not having Jedi is a welcome breath of fresh air. WEG games did a pretty solid business with their caretaking of the Star Wars license, enough that there are ardent D6 fans that would sooner spit on any other version of a Star Wars RPG than play it. Even the Star Wars gaming fansite that Rodney Thompson (lead designer/developer of Saga Edition) started and maintained (SWRPGNetwork and Holonet Forums) had a very strong pro-D6 bias in spite of the site's founder and main operator being the head-honcho of the latest WotC d20 version. And the fact that hundreds, if not thousands, of gamers were able to have a satisfying Star Wars gaming experience without an over-abundance of Jedi tells me that not ever Star Wars RPG has to feature Jedi as a playable character option.

Admittedly, younger generations of SW gamers, who grew up with an active EU as opposed to only having books like Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Han Solo Corporate Sector trilogy, and Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy for an 'expanded universe," will have a different perception, in part because of the over-emphasis that Force-users got during Keven J. Anderson's tenure of the burgeoning EU and the hyper-focus on Jedi and their actions in the Prequel Movies. Everyone raves about the Theed lightsaber battle, myself included, in TPM, even though that fight had very little consequence in regards to Naboo's liberation; at best it was a successful diversionary tactic for the bad guys to keep the heavy hitters (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had proven how easily they could plow through the Trade Federation's forces at the movie's beginning) from entering the fray. You could have easily taken out the Jedi/Sith elements of the story, have it be a treacherous criminal mastermind that's using hooky religion to direct the actions of a bunch of greedy corporate execs and the native's attempts to regain their freedom, with victory being helped along by a cocky young pilot that makes the right shot and the right time to help win the day.

I guess it comes down to the fundamental question of "what is Star Wars to me?" For all the Jedi action, there was a fair amount of public backlash that the prequels were not "Star Wars" to a generation of fans because it didn't fit their personal vision of what Star Wars should be.

As for having to make everything up, that's only if you want full-blown Jedi Knights as PCs, a character type that's notably absent in the era of play that EotE and probably the rest of the line is set in. If you just want a Force-user that can use a lightsaber, simply use the F/S Exile career, get your GM to allow Lightsaber as a career skill, and you've got the fundamentals down pat. If you want to go beyond Force Rating 2, badger your GM into allowing you to subsitute the Dedication talent in F/S Exile for a 2nd Force Rating talent. Based on what I saw and noted during my stress-testing sessions during the Open Beta period, a Force Rating 3 character stands a pretty solid chance of being able to generate 3 Light Side Force Points when rolling their Force Dice (2 if they've got one of Sense's Ongoing Effects active), which means activating a Force Power's base effect and two Upgrades, which is plenty enough to use Move to slam a stormtrooper into the ground from Medium Range or hurl a pair of Speederbikes at that armored bounty hunter that's within Short Range. The mechanics may not expressly say "Jedi" but the feel is certainly there, and I've played way more than my fair share of Jedi (ones that actually were and acted like Jedi, not glorified thugs with fancy weapons and psychic powers).