Look… I understand what FFG hopes this game will be. I do… I was there to watch Star Wars "A New Hope" (as it later came to be called), in the theaters (during the original release). My point is… FFG made a choice to sell us an 'incomplete' universe to start. I know a lot of you are excited about "scoundrel… and outer rim" type games… In fact… So am I… But by selling the first book this way… I HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER… At least one (and wait years in the process). That has me VERY NOT excited!

Cannon… Matters to us "geeks"… That's it… a casual fan does not care about cannon… Of which still, If Lucas Arts stamped it it's official… For me to argue that is like a modern priest disagreeing with God over the content of the Bible… You don't like Force Unleashed?… I thought "Return of the Jedi" was a load of S***… I mean a planet full of violent teddy bears!!! That put Jar Jar to shame! Whiching that trailer for "Force Unleashed II" (a great trailer) gets me all Jedi excited! As does the soldier in the "Hope" trailer for TOR (Yes… the other game I was talking about, set in the middle the of Jedi hayday)… Yeah those inspire the Star Wars geek in me! What of it! Luke was panzy… Solo a nerf herder… C'mon… We all can like what we like here… It is how the "Star Wars Universe" got so big… It's big enough for everyone… and has something for everyone as well…

You can personally dislike any portion of the Star Wars universe (which ever weird side of the stupid cannon debate you wish to be on)… But this is a game for ALL fans… So I just think BOOK #1 should have given us more "Star Wars" and less of one groups vision of what Star Wars they want you to play. I would have rather seen a non-era specific book… So I or another GM can decide where to play (WotC sort of did this… They said they started in the Rebellion Era, yes with a playable Jedi… but kept things as era-neutral as possible…

It all just feels like the need to sell more books is pushing aside the end user… who deserves more flexability to experience the Star wars they wish right off the bat…

White Wolf Games and Dungeons & Dragons both brought gemers to RPG games without movies… cartoons… etc. And people came in numbers large enough to start a movement… WEG Star Wars… With the weight of the Star Wars universe behind it… did nothing… That says so much about the "success" of the game… I cannot possibly word it another way… You may have like it… but that did not make it good… or viable from a sales standpoint.

LucianZenlav said:

Actually, the WEG Star Wars RPGis a big part of all that is the Star Wars EU at this point. Much of what has come after in the novels had its roots in their RPG as many authors used the game as a sort of information bible. And they held the license for quite a while, 12 years if I am not mistaken. That was without heaps and heaps of information on Jedi and Sith et al. WEG lost the license because they had to declare bankruptcy. WotC had it for about 10 years and that included revamping the entire system just to drum up business and then dropped it. From what I gather they found it wasn't selling as well as expected. So I don't hink that just having information on Jedi or Sith or Mandalorians or whatever will make for a popular game. A game has to be fun and attract people to play, if it doesn't do that then nothing you put out will matter. So here's hoping the game is fun and allows people to immerse themselves in the Star Wars universe in an exciting way. If it is popular then we will see more books. More books means that many people may get to see their favorite part as well.

WotC gave up the lisence mostly because of disputes between Lucas Arts and WotC brass kept causing product hold ups, redesigns, etc… Which because it was not selling in stellar number (the distant second place factor) caused them to forgo the lisence. Not simply because of poor sales. Let me put things this way… Would you buy an "Aliens" game with no rules for the "Aliens"… How about "Predetor" or the "X-Men" without super heroes? Jedi are part of what makes the Star Wars universe unique (same with Mandalorian Armor… hence bringing it up)… To leave out what makes you unique is absolutely crazy from a marketing standpoint. I mean truly!

But… I am done here… I make posts for a more "open and inclusive" game…

Guess that is not what is desired… by the rest… but I have said my piece… If FFG does not rectify this… I WILL NOT GIVE THEM $$$ PERIOD!!! That will speak louder then a forum post… As none of my friends will either… and probably non of theirs… etc…

And I thought this thread smelled bad, on the outside .

I hope no one is hoping that things will change based on forum griping. We are already getting a book on the Jedi and the timetable for its release (along with the Rebels vs Empire book) is the centerpiece of their entire design plan.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Since only a select few are really doing all the bitching about lack of an official Jedi presence in EotE, I doubt if any sort of change is going to happen, whether it's expected or not. If FFG's production cycle from initial development ot getting the book on shelves is anything like the one WotC had for their Star Wars books, the EotE corebook has been finalized for quite some time, with only a few alterations made by way of the Beta, mostly consisting of typos and a few mechanical alterations (specializtion costs, a handful of talents, Autofire, and Force Power upgrades to name a few).

And unlike Wookiees, we don't have the ability to rip FFG's arms out of their sockets (not that I'd want to do that or even condone such a thing in the first place).

The best that can be hoped for in terms of official material regarding Jedi and other Force-using traditions is either in supplements for EotE or Force & Destiny in 2015.

As much as I enjoy playing Force-users/Jedi (my first character in every Star Wars RPG has been a Jedi of some stripe, even if a barely trained one), I can appreciate FFG wanting to steer away from that and have their first book focus on the non-Jedi crowd, and in effect get an additional year or so of development and system-testing before introducing a character type that has traditionally bent/broken all the prior Star Wars RPGs in some degree or another.

Like I said earlier, I am looking forward to reading this book and am in no way saying that this is an awful book before I read it. In truth, I think the rules look fun and I can’t wait to get a hold of however…

I am not sure that saying those who are not pleased with the Jedi marginalization is “bitching”. As I said in my earlier post, I am excited about the game and I also think that FFG is making a huge mistake by focusing on the outer rim scoundrels. In truth, I think a lot of the defending of FFG decision making is more in line of being an ideologue of the game. To be honest I have seen far more people on this board say things that would suggest a disappointment with the non Jedi narrative than a complete compliance with it.

In some ways, I see what FFG is doing as Father Knows Best syndrome. I call it this because of the in-house think tank that some game companies do without “really” thinking about its audience. I would use D&D 4ed as an example but that would be way to easy, instead I will use AEG’s Legend of the Five Rings 4ed. During the design diary of their new edition they said that they would be removing a lot of the history, changing the schools to make them streamlined and a host of other ideas that they were clearly called out on during that period. Their response was “Trust us, we know our game and you will not be disappointed”.

In truth, many of the things they were called out on during the start of their new edition were absolutely true especially as time went on. The reviews have been less than stellar and groups are starting to move back to the previous edition. The major call by a lot of fans has been please give us 5 ^th edition and please make it more like 3 ^rd edition. The point is that game companies many times see fans as ideologues who will do as there are told. I kind of see that same thinking with FFG.

In fact, I would bet that many of the reviews on Amazon will say things that suggest the game rules are great but it is missing that high fantasy/action Jedi moments that we have all come to love. I also think that unless FFG makes Jedi supplements quickly for EotE, it will sting them. As a fan of RPGs and Star Wars, 2015 is a ridiculous time to wait for Lightsaber fights.

Asshattery and swtor-forum behaviour… wow, I mean, I know I shouldn't be suprised, but I still am. I don't think the "money-card" has the same effect on FFG. Its not really an argument, nor does it really function as a good threat, nor is it … I mean, c'mon… why silly threats and asshattery?

I see this discussion again, I wonder if I should sink to this level of stupid and discuss with morons, instead I post a sort of monologue where I talk to myself about how some people never will be happy until they get to that elusive nothing that they want, where their own definition is the only valid, and any counter argument - however reasonable and valid (EU happened very much because of WEG, its history, its a fact - WotC created little new stuff, mostly rehashed WEG stuff, with a few notable exceptions sure) - is ignored, or even sometimes cited out of context to start a flame war (are we getting there?), or something akin to this behaviour. I used to think this belonged to pre-adolescent, prepubertal sillies, but I have been proven wrong again and again. I can accept that, but hardly respect it. Hence I sink and saunter slowly downwards too…

@Thenaysayers:
Its not really a big issue that stuff is "missing" as you claim - when you think of it, not really… make it yourself, use your creativity and imagination and think up something else than bland and boring threats about not spending your cash. We get it, you're hurt and "in the right" - we're all in the "wrong" for being stupid ass doormats that lets FFG run their company as they know works for them… yeah, sure, they know nothing of marketing, at all…. you tell them! What is the trouble of investing time to make the game memorable, I mean if they made some stats you disagreed with, you'd tweak them anyways, you'd have to make your own villains, one always makes up new stuff … I just don't see the problem… Isn't RPGs about creativity?

Jegergryte said:

+1

Truncated the text to keep the focus.

Dance Commander said:

Of course we've seen this. People upset will always be very vocal. Although I've seen just as many people say they weren't disappointed. Also, we are but a drop in the bucket. Who's to say whether or not they are a majority, minority or whatever? Only time and sales will show. WotC threw in everything and it didn't work for them. So maybe we need a new perspective.

I've seen the statement that Jedi make the Star Wars universe unique, but I think it is the universe itself and all it encompasses that makes it interesting. This includes the Jedi, x-wings, the Millenium Falcon, wookies, R2-D2, lightsabers, Death Stars, star destroyers, stormtroopers, the Rebellion, and so much more. The characters, the stories, so much of this is the character of the Star Wars universe. This game seems to promote fun in playing in the Star Wars universe and I think that will be the biggest telling point.

Oh man, stop the fighting. IF its not in the BETA or Beginners book, Just make it up. Why not sit down and design a Jedi and make it for YOUR game. Who cares about what Tom, **** and Harry thinks. Just make it work in YOUR game, and if you are having fun with it, then its a game to keep playing. So please, cut the ball busting. Im not impressed with the "firefly approach" to it, but its still a cool game and once the Jedi book comes out, I will enjoy it more. Until then, house rule, house rule and house rule!

What really makes a Star Wars game is the story you and your group tell around the table. Nothing else matters.

(NOTE PLEASE I DO NOT DISLIKE THIS SYSTEM)

Wow! My point was soooooooo missed… I think the game system looks great! I have enjoyed what I have seen… But, it is incomplete… Delivering a set of Star Wars RPG rules without Jedi is just kind of silly… The funny thing (as I relate to this conversation) is I DON'T EVEN PLAY JEDI! I like to play "other" force users… but not enough of that was even provided! It is like they built a game system and added a little Star Wars at the end… Somethings you just put in because a large portion of your potential users will want it. If I GM a Star Wars game and say "no one can play a Jedi… EVER!" None of my friends will show up… Why "Not because they cannot be a Jedi…" but because I am being too limiting to their "fantasy"… So I don't really care to play a Jedi… But if some of my friends cannot… no group gets together… no group gets together… I do not get to play… nor do the rest… Well, actually my friends would go play WotC Star Wars because in their actual words "the system is complete" they have most all the needed data…

If by not having Jedi limits the number of games and players will to play them… Then that is just not a good thing! This is not a personal "thing" for me… I don't even like Jedi… but LOTS of other players do and their descision to play will be based on that fact… Leaving GM me… with no players (as I will not pen and paper over webcams)… Nobody wins!

The problem with people on forums is they take discent far too much to (their own) heart… I like this system that was the 95% I liked as stated above… But I just feel they are leaving too much out… No Stormtrooper armor ?!?!?! Stat that out exactly! It may be one of the most populous pieces of gear in the universe!!! But so far we get "well you take one of these and add one of these and pretend a little with this other thing…" C'mon… It's Stromtrooper armor… We all know what it contains… Go Wookiepedia if you don't know… Just put it together for us (I mean jeez you gave stats to a lightsaber that nobody can use!!!!)… So when you open the book… You "feel" Star Wars… Not "Just another Space Opera"…

I find it odd that simply because I am animated and fiery about this… That many of you will assume I am simply being a nay sayer… Much to the contrary… I post because I believe this could be something good… but that this company is making some time tested poor choices to feel "old school"… But I am out of school and I still want to experience Star Wars… for some of the people I play with… That HAS to include Jedi….

All I am saying is that a company's first book for a Star Wars RPG should be more like WotC's… they gave us basics for most things a Star Wars game (in any era) might need… Even if it did not wholy fit the Rebellion Era intent of the 1st Saga edition book. That way, with that one book and nothing else (if that was all that was available) you could run the "gamut" of campaigns! It seems like a simple request to me…

I think we all need to remember that roleplaying is best when it is an inclusive activity… not exsclusive…

Peace…

PS… "Leaving" BIG things out like Jedi… reeks of "carrot on a stick captalism"… Bait them with a taste and make them spend more for what they want… Like all those spend "real money" to buy MMORPG items games… By not dilivering a "Basic but Complete" system… They insure repeat business… Sorry I wont be led that wholy… Give me something good… I'll give you money in droves… Lead me along… I get angry… It is simple. Give us a basic Star Wars game… Include all of the basic precepts… (The Force, Jedi, extensive item customization, alien species, starships (and rules to build them), bounty hunters, scoundrels, Stormtroopers, equipment we know the model # of… etc) Then put out books that further "flesh out" the basics… Allow the gamer to decide their level of dedication to the game without killing whole chunks of it for them if they choose not to buy further… In that a game company could show themselves to "have gamers needs at heart…" and not simply corporate profits on their mind…

The system is more like WEG's first offering. Which had only a handful of force user types. None of which approached even the power level Luke hits by the second movie. And none can pull off "These aren't the droids you're looking for" (at least not with its TN15 as presented in the 1E WEG rulebook for alter conclusions, even if the GM allows adding 1d each to force skills from the skill pool - max is thus 2d, and there was no wild die until 2E).

In comparison, the only thing missing from EOTE (vs WEG) is actual rules for turning to the dark side. I'm going to use Obligation for that, at least until the beta for the force users hits.

As in, "Sure, you can add an obligation point instead of a destiny point…" until they roll dark side obligation. Then they have to use only one color…

LucianZenlav said:

…

Someone please tell me I'm missing the scarcasm.

LucianZenlav said:

No I don't think your point was missed. They've included the Force, but no Jedi. No Sith or any other Force traditions either. Actually, with the basic blank slate that are the Force abilities one can do just about anything they want with them. So more specializations? Soldier? Pilot? Consular? Guardian? Imperial Inquisitor? Emperor's Hand? Alien races? How many is enough? 6? 8? 12? 20? Ship customization rules? How much space is that going to consume? And not everyone wants that. Item customization? That's there. The beta book included minimal setting info, but it was only beta. I imagine more info will be in the actual book, so that is more space taken. And the beta book did have stormtrooper armor. But we need Mandalorian armor too to satisfy those players. So where do they draw the line to please everyone? How big is this book going to be that meets everyone's needs? It's already 450 pages. Should we make it 750?

I can see you are disappointed with their direction. I can understand it, even if I don't agree with it. But I can also see that the lack of actual Jedi, while a stumbling block for some, does not seem to be stopping many more from enjoying the game. My personal experience with my group is that they feel like they are playing Star Wars. And that tells me that the game is resonating with them. And that tells me that the game is working. Which is what I want and what I know FFG wants.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Someone please tell me I'm missing the scarcasm.

Scarcasm… I wish it were… Can you explain to me how your side of this coin (that being my "carrot on a stick" statement) is soooooo correct you believe I must be "kidding"…

Can you offer a real reason why FFG decided to start here (Jedi-less Rebellion Era) and not with a more "neutral" offering like WotC chose is anything but "carrot-on-a-stick"? Because simply wanting to be "old scholl" I am not buying… Nor am I buying "not having time to do it…" Do what you need to provide the basics of the universe… 1st book… No questions… The "depth" of each section does not need to be huge or finely detailed, just there enough to play with… Then expand into detail… But give basic players "the whole experience"… Do not hold them up with "campaign choices" made by someone else… at least not to start.

When you make choices like FFG has… Gamers like me, who have had to "deal" with FAR too many iterations of D&D, start to feel… Well… Like we are following a "carrot-on-a-stick"… Selling the next book becomes vital and thus… You trickle out data (or change systems completely) to keep cash flowing. But somewhere the end-user gets lost. One of the few things I applauded WotC for since they took over D&D (maybe the only) was the Saga Edition Core Book… Why? Because they took a big leap offering that "complete" of a Star Wars RPG in one book. You did not NEED to buy any other book to play… In fact the "Company Campaign" Dawn of Defiance used NO other book! That is a gutsy move. But it shows an understanding of the value of both the "casual gamer" as well as the "die hard nut" (like myself)… If a system is more open to the "casual gamer"… Which a more "complete" Star Wars system in one book would be… More gamers enter the fold… Because easier… They can play in the "setting" without feeling like they NEED to shell out more cash to get the "feel" they want.

That is just smart business…

I think it is also important to note… As far as cannon sources go… And here I do include the 2 runs of the Clone Wars cartoons and the second runs movie… Less time by far was spent in the Rebellion Era… That choice is for "older gemers"… Most of the filmed movies even (by running hours) are set outside the Rebellion Era… Add in the Clone Wars and the offset is staggering! So within "cannon" sources… The Rebellion Era is one of the least covered, as well as being the "least modern"… So why place a modern Star Wars RPG here (as long as being "cannon" is important)? I like the era for my own reasons… but it just seems as though you could hit a much more broad audience if it was set during the Clone Wars… or the Old Republic since the franchise is pushing both so hard these days… Synergy across product lines is also "good business"… As it attatches bits of "mind-share" together… Always a good thing.

Let me again state though. A lot of my frustration here is truly not personal… I worry for the long term health of the game if good business choices are not made… Then we all lose. I really enjoy the system ideas FFG has put together A LOT! IN FACT A WHOLE LOT!!! And I want to see this game succed… I just worry that they have strayed down a path which could hurt that long term viability… and thus our ability to get fun new gamming material within the Star Wars universe.

I hope I am wrong… I do… But I just do not believe I am… And thus… Until I see the system really take root… It will not get my money… It is risky to invest in a game I may not be able to get my players to play… Chances are I would still purchase bits here and there for "making characters and wishing I was playing…" but… I am going to have to take a "wait and see attitude"

After all the last edition of the game is still relavent… and complete… I will need a good reason to shift…

FFG… I am really wishing for you to pull this off… (Yes actually wishing)… Trust me…

I hope I am wrong…

MouthyMerc (good choice)

I did not say they got everything wrong… where did I say that… That list was inclusive… not what FFG left out. It was things that should be there… Of which they got A LOT RIGHT! Remeber my 95% statement?

1) I personally like the Rebellion Era

2) I do not play Jedi (I think of them in "real" terms like Catholic Priests)

3) I personally find FFG system "REALLY **** COOL!!!" (as expressed to our groups other GM)

4) I WANT THIS GAME TO DO WELL!

My statements here have more to do with "sound business" descisions then "personal preference"… Besides… If provided a more "complete" Star Wars experience, I can fit things to my "personal preference"…

If you do not see the simple point about a more "neutral and inclusive" Star Wars RPG to start would be a good thing from a business stand point, well then I guess we can agree to disgree… But that is how you bring in more people is by not making thier choices for them…

LucianZenlav said:

Thanks.

The only thing missing are full on Force using specializations. I don't think leaving them out will be that much of a deciding factor on whether the game does well. WotC included them in both iterations and still couldn't get their game to fly. I think it will depend more on how enjoyable the game is to play. So, yeah, we can agree to disagree.

Not get their game to fly… First people come here and talk about WEG's 12 years like it was meaningful (yet I have never personally met anyone who played)… WotC did it for 10… Of which you do not do something for 10 years that "did not fly"…

C'mon Merc at that point… Be real for second… That IS overstating things…

My point is NOT "WHAT" they left out… but that "WHAT" they left out created an incomplete version of Star Wars… Meaning… To get a complete version… I have to buy more books… Even WotC gave me the choice to avoid that…

If you are fine with having to purchase hundreds of $$$ in game books every year or two… Cool… Your a gamer… That is what we do… But to bring more gamers to the table… That takes a book like WotC's first (which my group personally started at 3 members and came to include almost 20… all for a good while off 1 book alone… a book that ALL of them bought! Of those 20… 15 had never gamed!!!)

When more gamers come to sit at our tables… we all win…

If your a new gamer… You want to play a Jedi… It is most often what brought you to the universe… Why shut them out right off the bat? Then those potential players feel "let down" and less likely to come to the next session…

After 35 years of playing and GM'ing all the way back to the 3 "little white D&D books" (where halflings were still hobbits)… This fact has been a cosistant. When you get too much of your game in their fantasy… They don't come back… Players need a reason to play… When you tell them "NO… You cannot do that…" They lose interest… and that is even over unreasonble requests ("can I be a Sith Lord?!")… When you start to limit things that seem within reason or are halmarks of a setting… Players really begin to fade out… (even the best of them…)

One main book… One handing of $$ to store… Play most any Star Wars environment… That will bring people to the system. It feels more safe for the casual… It is simple… Most people like that… "You mean all I need to buy is one book… I always thought RPG's needed hundreds of $$ in books" my new gamers would say over a Saga Edition game… "Nope… Not here… One book…"

The next game session so many players whiped out the copies of the Saga Core… I almost got teary…

These are not simple stories though… And getting 15+ non-gamers to show up every week to become gamers… Was not trivial… The simplicity of getting into that game… was not trivial either… It was vital…

One book… One price… The entry point… It should open possibilities… not close them…

"But I, being poor, have but my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet… tread softly because you tread on my dreams"

-Yates-

(I think this sums it up)

Man, who could have predicted people might want to play Jedi in a Star Wars game?

No point was missed. I guess I'm not a purist and fundamentalist when it comes to the "all inclusiveness" that you espout.

Nor do I agree with your definition of Star Wars and what you have convinced yourself is a good business model.

Futhermore, the point of a company is to produce something to earn money, no money, no production. To wave the capitalist-card just because you don't like to spend you money on stuff is … pointless and irrelevant really. Of course they're following a model where they have to produce more and make more stuff - it makes sense, you earn money that way. Also, they don't have to revise the game every 5th year this way. Stop moaning and consume **** it!

You have never met anyone that has played the d6 version? Well, then there's perhaps not a big rpg community where you live, and/or a young rpg community that came to rpgs about 12-13 years ago; thats "n00b" - or whatever preadolescents call it these days. It's like "there was no rpgs before D&D 3rd edition, before WotC came and raped the industry with their shiny pages of art and less than useless system" … or something.

I see your point of inclusiveness, but to fair, its a pointless gesture and thing to moan about. They've made the game, much of what you desire is already in the beta - so I assume you haven't read through the book? The Jediness well… moan all you want, the book is on its way - who knows, perhaps there's more in it than the beta book? Cross your tentacles kids! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! There's nothing to be done, the Old Ones are already here, whispering in our minds: "

At this point, I'm wondering if the moderators should just lock this thread and put a forum-wide ban on restarting these kinds of threads due to their habit of devolving into a mess of pointless, petty bickering. Especially as it appears a lot of the civility on both sides has gone out the window.

It'd probably be less work to just let people play Jedi. Then everyone could stop having to explain why you can't.

ErikB said:

Even less work to put up a sticky thread saying "No, you can't play actual Jedi in EotE, and here's why."

It's a design choice, albiet one that's not very popular one, but if you're really that upset about it… then don't buy the game. Your wallet's going to speak a hell of a lot louder than an easily ignored post on a message board that most of the developers don't even bother to look at.

Donovan Morningfire said:

If it is not popular why stick to it? Stubborness?