I doubt we'll see any sort of apology. Maybe a glimpse of their gameplan or why they chose to model the Original Trilogy. But as I said earlier, no matter what is said there are people that will just not accept it. They will continue to ascribe devious motivations or state outright that FFG is not doing Star Wars right. Just because they say it doesn't make it so. Honestly if you think SW:EotE is nothing more than a glorified "cowboys in space" game and that Jedi are so core to Star Wars that it isn't Star Wars without them, then don't buy it. I think you'll be missing out, but whatever.

Protege said:

Thank you. I am humbled. I really do get where you're coming from…and as I've stated…absolutely love the Jedi and other Force-users. At first the "funny dice", the Era-focused setting and "No Jedi?!!" made me scoff at the game, but I was bored one night and began to read. The dice began to intrugue me and I said, "What the hell. I'll spend the $30.00 on the Beginner Set and see if I like it as much as I think I might, system-wise". I did. I mean, I REALLY did.

I lurked on here, read the errata and looked at some fan stuff and started to feel better about the setting. I love things like Firefly and began to embrace it more and more. See, I love all SW, not just the OT. It's just has this…something. This…"Star Wars-ness"? You all know what I mean. That mentioned I realized I wanted to play SW and it didn't really matter when. The how (the system) was a no-brainer and my new RPG love, so that was all good. And the focus of the setting was OK because it was still SW! I'm not trying to be that broken record, but that's the best way I can put it.

But, still no Jedi and still a little sad. Then I saw the awesome fan-made stuff and realized that if I really want Jedi, it can be done. I can make them, you can make them…somebody can make them! We have the power! Yeah, it'd be awesome to have a huge, official, playtested book about Jedi, Sith, Jensaarai and all the other Force-wielding goodness, but we have to wait. And to be honest, there's part of me that's grumbling about such a long wait.

However, in the end, I'm OK with that. Not everyone is though and we all have to respect that, even when they're ranting like a rancor on meth. Gamers are an impassioned people as are SW fans. Now mix them together…

And it really doesn't even come down to just the Jedi, if you think about it. It's that SW is so **** special to so many people in so many ways, that somebody's bound to be unhappy. Have a wide-Era spread and it's diluted and some are unhappy. Focus on the NJO and again, people are unhappy. It goes on. We don't have to agree with a person's anger or what-have-you, but we do need to respect it. If they did have Jedi, I wonder how much detail could be given to starships or the basic system. Again, somebody's walking away mad, which is regrettable.

Does that mean that truly vile things need to be said? Not at all. But these forums aren't just for threads like, "OMG! I love this system!" (that guy's a freakin' fanboy…lol) and FFG deserves to know when fans are upset as well as happy. Of course, flies and honey…

I actually take it as kind of a compliment, in a weird way, the ranting. That a person's opening up…in whatever way…about a passion. Sometimes it's to share a great idea. Sometimes it's seeking clarification. And sometimes it's to vent to people who understand the love of the hobby and in this case, Star Wars.

Now give me my ******* group hug!

Oh! I had an idea and I would LOVE for FFG to do this: Let people help playtest an ALPHA of F&D! People could "get" Jedi earlier and it would be amazing feedback. I don't know if each game's getting a beta, but I'm willing to bet letting us "Jedi lovers" have a hand in helping even sooner would be simply amazing.

I just peed a little thinking about it…

TalkingMuffin said:

Why would you want to play the Alpha? If you're lucky an Alpha has the beginning framework of what will be the material, but is like trying to use playdoh to build a skyscraper. Or in the case of video games, it is a barely functioning, highly unstable version of a game and would just give the players a very bad feel for what the game will be in the end. Hence why only Developers work with Alphas, then open it to larger player bases once it enters the Beta stage (much closer to the final product). Like walking through a skyscraper once all the structure is up, but may not have the shiny, finished paintjob in place.

Cuz…Jedi?

I dunno, man! I'm just trying to find some ideas, that's all.

And BTW, some of us like Playdoh…and skyscrapers made of it. Stop hating.

Protege said:

"Marginalised." Seriously?

Yes, you are being told to wait two years. They are not being patronising, they are just telling you how it is. Yes, you 'define and identify Star Wars as a story that revolves around Jedi'. Fortunately for those of us who do not FFG does not agree with you. You are not entitled to a Jedi game - you are not entitled to a SW game at all. So why should your preferences be catered to before mine?

macd21 said:

Can't we do both?

ErikB said:

No, this isn't possible.

FFG doesn't have the resources to produce both games simultaneously and in a way to be compatible.

EotE allows them to release a simpler game, shake out the bugs, and iteratively improve the system in AoR & F&D.

This has been explained before.

Get over it.

-WJL

ErikB said:

@ ErikB: I was thinking the same thing.

In no way do I think that my Jedi game should come before anyone else’s game. I have never said that I think everyone who plays Star Wars should have to play a game with Jedi. Heck, a few years ago, I ran a scoundrel/Cowboys in space game. When the game was over, my group and I agreed that we proffered a Jedi game over this type of story. As the storyteller, I liked telling a Jedi game over that kind of story as well. Everyone had fun, but it just wasn’t our thing.

What I find odd is that I have heard the reverse said a few times on here. The suggestions that I should play a Cowboys in space game until F&D is released. I believe one of the comments was “Hey, may even like it”. There is definitely an odd double standard going on. Its not like I am not in the know regarding scoundrels, I just don't think it makes up the core definition of Star Wars.

The assumption of FFG (and apparently the ideologues of FFGs) is that if you don’t like the unilateral pigeon hole that EotE is doing, then you “don’t get it”. So far, (and I could be very wrong on this) I have not read any official word from FFG’s that says they are holding Jedi for balance reasons. The only official word so far has been that it is mirroring the original trilogy.

So in short, all this talk about FFG’s holding Jedi back for game balance is conjecture. All this talk about having Jedi in the game will somehow ruin your game is hypocritical (after all, Scoundrels or Clone solders might ruin my game, you don’t know); and just because FFG says this is how they are doing things does not mean that people do not have a right to make change in their own way. They have the right to put out their book, and I have the right to say what I feel about their decision making process.

Protege said:

This is the biggest reason that you wil not get Jedi till the Force & Destiny book. I understand that people want their Jedi, but that is not what FFG has planned. They are creating three books which will focus on different aspects. These books can be played separately or can be combined, once they are all released. I don't think it has anything to do with a balance issue. My hope is that the Jedi do not become the uber-characters they have been, but I don't think that FFG is designing in that direction. I do think they are following their business plan and that is why you won't see Jedi until the third book.

Why can't they do it both ways? Because they are following an agenda. They can certainly choose to change that agenda, but maybe they do not want to. Maybe they have a vision they want to fulfill, which is creating three books that mirror the original trilogy. That is pretty obvious. No hidden agenda to hide away the Jedi, just a delay because in their vision they are not appropriate till the third book. You don't have to like it and you can certainly complain about it, but don't be surprised if nothing changes because they are going to base their success on how well the game sells.

ErikB said:

You can try, but in doing so you potentially dilute the game. Rather than have one crap SW game you can have three good ones.

Protege said:

If you don't want to play EotE then don't. No one is forcing you to. Yes, you apparently "don't get it". And balance is clearly one of the issues that Jedi present (though not the only one).

Had FFG released a SW game that combined Jedi with smugglers I wouldn't have been interested. I've played those games before and hated them. Had they released a Jedi game first and then a smuggler game 2 years later I wouldn't have minded - I'd be happy to wait 2 years for the game that I wanted.

Protege said:

So, even though NOBODY here has said anything even remotely like this, you're going accuse your opponents of hypocrisy?

First off, its not your game. Regardless of what you may think about it, or what you think might ruin it, you have no ownership of the game system, and therefore no right to dictate, claim, or decide what FFG should or should not include in this edition. You don't have to play EotE. If you can't stomach this SWRPG, you have at least 5 other editions with jedi you can play instead.

Second, there is no way in h#ll you can know what we would say if the tables were reversed, and it's simply stupid to assume that the only reason that individuals opposed to your view hold that viewpoint because they're getting what they want! I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I would have preferred AoR first, but I'm not on here pitching a fit because I didn't get it. For that matter, if the first game was designed to be Jedi-centric, and was as exclusionary to fringers, scoundrels, smugglers, mercenaries and their ilk as EotE is to Jedi, then not only would I still not complain, I would still hold the position that it would be better to have individual games for individual aspects of the universe, regardless of what the wait time is.

Actually, you may want to watch what accusations you're throwing around. It seems pretty clear that for some people, it's not underlying structure of the three-stand alone products that bothers them, its the time line. Based on actual statements like:

Protege said:

it seems to reason that they would not be complaining/sympathetic if they got what they wanted first, smugglers and bounter hunters be damned.

And the reasoning behind FFG's design decision is simple: It is better to have a game does one thing well, than to have a game that does three things, all poorly.

No matter what want to believe the situation is, this is the official reason they are releasing three games. At their "In-flight report" at GC12 where they announced EotE, the CEO made a statement along the following lines:

The first thing we did when we started developing the game was ask ourselves "what is the 'core' star wars experience?" and we realized even the core was different for different players. For some it was about being a bounty hunter or a smuggler on the edge of the galaxy. For others, the struggle of the rebels against the empire. And for others still it was Jedi versus Sith, the light vs the dark. So , when we say 'star wars role playing game', we actually need to say 'role playing games'. We will be releasing 3 stand-alone products, each that focus on one of these core star wars experiences …

Forcing a full set of force user & Jedi rules (or military combat rules, for that matter) into a game where they don't belong like EotE would reduce the quality of the game. Every previous edition has made this mistake. This thread is basically asking FFG to screw up another SWRPG on purpose !!

The good news is, there is an alpha version of Force and Destiny that will be available for playtesting soon.

It's called Edge of the Empire.

I hear it comes out in July. If you buy it, you will create revenue to help FFG develop the final version of that precious Jedi game you want so bad. If you play[test] it and leave constructive comments about the system on their forums, you will have contributed to it's development and helped to make that Jedi game better.

Or you can just moan & groan about how it needs moar Jedi, and see where that gets you.

-WJL

mouthymerc said:

I think they should. Two years is too long to wait for Jedi.

ErikB said:

Why?

macd21 said:

Because I like Jedi, and two years is a long time?

I just ain't getting any younger here.

ErikB said:

Certainly ain't getting any more mature, either.

LethalDose said:

Come on. Not cool, merc.

We're not getting Jedi. That's apparent. Fine. It's frustrating but we ALL really need to just cool off about it.

What would be nice is maybe a little PDF about the Lightsaber skill and how to block/redirect/etc shots so people could at least have that. Maybe a little bit on Holocrons you might find and how you use them. Not a lot of rules, but just enough. Yes, we can make our own (hell, maybe they don't have those rules yet) but it'd be nice and would show "they care" (not that they don't, it's just the best way I can think of to explain it).

I'll admit, the more I think about it, the more I scratch my head about them not having Jedi. It won't make me change my mind about the game and if I like it or not, but it seems so odd. But hey, they do have enough Force powers to serve a springboard toward making your own and the lightsaber is in there, so that's something.

Wanna play Jedi? Either house rule it, use some of the fan created material made by people more creative than you are or wait the 2 years. You can either wait for FF to sell you the material you want or you can be proactive and do something yourself about it.

Frankly the lack of Jedi are a draw for me. The Fringe and Miltary elements are way more interesting than their glowstick wielding counterparts. Before the EU Jedi were interting but since they now have a force power for everything they are pretty boring.

LethalDose said:

nice one

TalkingMuffin said:

You can play Force Sensitives. Have been able to since the Beta was released. It isn't a large stretch to go from those trees to playing some kind of a Jedi. The system is fairly abstract. Need a Force Jump, just use Move on yourself and don't resist it. Want to block with a Saber… Add some defense talents to the sense tree that only work with a Lightsaber.

What the system doesn't allow, out of the box, is playing Darth Vader or Mace Windu… Whcih is fine. Those aren't starting characters anyways, but those are the models that everyone seems to think should be doable by a system.

TalkingMuffin said:

@TalkingMuffin: Did Mouthymerc say something related to this? I think you're quoting me above.

Just didn't want responsibility for something I said being laid at someone else's feet.

-WJL

TalkingMuffin said:

Assuming this is directed at me, get your reading comprehension checked please. I did not say that.

mouthymerc said:

That's my mistake, apologies to merc. LethalDose, that was mean. There are a lot of people being straight-up assholes on here, but that's the lovely Internet bravado we all have to deal with. I'm not the morality police and such, but I still don't think it does anyone any good.

Anyhoo, I'd love to know what ideas people have concerning how to spend Advantage and Threat on the Lightsaber skill (beyond what's in the beta), if any. Also, where you'd let a player learn it, etc.

I was thinking one could find a holocron (those little gems are a GM's best friend in so many ways when it comes to Jedi/Sith!), which I've always been a fan of. Of course, why in the hell would a Force-sensitive who's like most people and regard the Jedi as a myth (which bugs me that they went from "guardians and peace and justice for the galaxy" to "who the **** are they Jedi?!" in what, 20 years?) suddenly take a lightsaber and magic box and say, "Empire! Come get me!".

I guess that's even more of a question: Luke and Yoda are the last Jedi, so how could there be more? Yes, I know many hid and masked their Jedi-ness, but that begs the question as to why a Jedi would then poke his head out? How would Yoda not know? The Emperor? (I know they don't have "Look! A Jedi"-detectors, but you know what I mean) I'm not arguing if it's possible, but how you all would make it fit without a Death Star shoehorn.

TalkingMuffin said:

Well, just because a Jedi survivor of Order 66 has a strong incentive to keep their head down and out of the limelight doesn't always mean they'll just stand by and do nothing if they come across a grave enough injustice. There was a series of books called "Last of the Jedi" which started out with Obi-Wan leaving Tatooine (after Qui-Gon's ghost convinced him it was safe to do so, but only for a brief peroid of time) and wound up getting involved in helping a growing local resistance movement on a different planet. So just because the threat doesn't have the means to blow up an entire planet doesn't mean that an older Jedi, Knight or otherwise, will just stand by and let bad things happen. They're just going to be more circumspect about it, particularly if they're not in the Outer Rim Territories.

As for why such a person might be willing to teach a PC, it comes down to passing along their traditions and beliefs. After all, the Jedi Order is only well and truly destroyed when the last few pieces of their knowledge and wisdom is lost to the ages. And once the Rebel Alliance starts gaining ground and proves that it actually has a chance of toppling the Galactic Empire, more of the surviving Jedi would be willing to come out of the woodwork to lend what support they could, and that support could be teaching a promising Force-Sensitive the ways of the Force as the Jedi perceive them. Said training would probably have more of a focus on combat, both out of necessity and that most of the survivors either participated or were getting trained to fight in the Clone Wars, which required the Jedi Order to shift its training focus from "keepers of the peace" to "leaders in a time of war" (this got mentioned in the Dark Rendezvous novel by Yoda as a regret of the Clone Wars while accepting that it was necessary).

As for holocrons, they should be pretty rare in general, and while players may leap at the chance to become a Jedi, remember that Jedi weren't the only ones to build them. Also, most Holocron Gatekeepers are pretty savvy beings, and they'd probably be just as quick to caution a student to keep as low a profile as possible if informed of the state of galactic affairs under Palpatine's rule as an Order 66 survivor would.

As for why Yoda or the Emperor wouldn't mysically know how many other Jedi survivors there were, you answered your own question. They simply don't know, and unless the Jedi survivor does something to cause a major ripple in the Force, they'd have no way of automatically know.ing. Return of the Jedi proved that farseeing wasn't infalliable, as Palpatine's grand scheme to destroy the Rebellion went off the rails in a big way, and not even Yoda could see the outcome of the Clone Wars. It's also likely that Yoda told Luke "last of the Jedi you will be" to get the kid motivated; if Yoda had said there were other Jedi, Luke might very well have tried to seek them out rather than confronting Vader as was his destiny. And Palps was quite likely aware there were Jedi survivors, which was brougth up in the novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader (takes place shortly after RotS), but as long as those Jedi remained in hiding and generally cowed, he didn't care; after all, Palpatine had won the battle of Jedi vs. Sith quite decisively from where he was sitting, and letting Vader go about hunting other Jedi (particularly those that didn't stay in hiding and became thorns in the Empire's side) was pretty just to let Vader indulge in his desire to eliminate a perceived threat. And as long as the Jedi survivor didn't openly use their powers in public, there wouldn't really be a way for Palps or Vader to know that Jedi survivor had survived.

Np TM. It's all good.

Keep in mind that even at their height of "power", given the enormity of the Star Wars galaxy, Jedi were still only known as myth and legend in some places. They could not be everywhere and everyplace. The same for the Empire. Luke was the last Jedi in regards to movies, but for the "reality" of the Star Wars galaxy (EU and the games) he wasn't.

After 20 years of the Empire trying to wipe out any knowledge of the Jedi, they would have become even more obscure the farther you get from the center. A Jedi using his abilities is not like a homing beacon, though. Just like the real world, someone would have to observe and report what they see. And many wouldn't even understand or care depending on the situation. And then the Empire would have to dispatch someone to investigate (Imperial Inquisitor possibly) which would all be done after the fact. Remember the scene in the cantina where Obi-Wan cuts off the arm of Ponda Baba's arm. Most people went back to their business afterward. Now granted it was a "seedy bar", but everyone living under Empire rule is not a spy and will not go running to them to report everything. If they do it will usually be because of opportunity and they would have to realize there is an opportunity. I imagine the Empire was innundated with reports of "Jedi" and had to pick and choose which to investigate and which to ignore.

Just like the movie, though, the players are the heroes of their story, so they would be the ones to most likely find that "lost" Jedi teacher or holocron. Both are good ways of starting your character down the road to Jedi-hood. In fact, if I recall correctly, both the adventure outline in the RCR Rebellion book and the Saga Adventure path included lost Jedi that could help your character down that path, so coming up with something like that is very much in keeping with the spirit of Star Wars.