Red Saber said:

Maybe not a compliment to you, but for many others they appreciate the return to what they consider basics. And calling FFG's product similar to WEG's is probably more a compliment even though you intended it not to be. Let's also keep in mind that this was a joke done by GamerNation and not FFG. FFG never called anyone a troll. Even though you aren't getting your Jedi now like you want, you will still have them when Force & Destiny releases. And let's be clear, it is not the Star Wars that you want because of the lack of Jedi, for many others it is very much Star Wars.

Red Saber said:

Stating your disappointed that Jedi were not fully supported the first pass of a modular Star Wars does not make you a troll.

However, a 20 page thread where almost half the posts are from one poster harping on it… That's different story.

-WJL

ErikB said:

Passive aggressive is a nice way of putting it. It was a mean spirited shot at people who feel like they are being completely cast aside by this product. I have no respect for that humor.

WEG is not a complement IMO. I remember playing it back in the 90's and thinking Star Wars would be in better hands elsewhere. I am totally going to let FFG know what I think at Gencon.

Don't. Just don't.

There was nothing passive agressive intended in the April Fool''s posts. It was intended as a bit of harmless fun on the day. Something for people to read through and have a laugh. If you are upset about them, then I am sorry you choose to feel that way. It was certainly not our intent to upset you.

Do not ascribe motives to it beyond that. Do not use it as a means to continue whatever agenda you may have. Enjoy it or don't, that is up to you, but do not start or restart arguments about anything involved with them here on these boards. If you want somewhere to complain go to The GSA and do it there. We've have lots of room for people to comment if they want to.

Red Saber said:

It wasn't meant to be.

:0)

ErikB said:

OK, not only is that a waste of paper, there are offensive words which hurt me and made me sad… *sniff*

Red Saber said:

WEG Produced their RPG from 1987 until 1997. When they started, only the 3 movies were really present for source material. As new books/comics were put out, WEG expanded their products. Now, not then, but now, are people expecting Jedi be present by default. And actually, EotE being compared to WEG's system is a compliment, even if they don't complement each other…

Not to mention that much of the early literature and information owes itself to the WEG game. The information feom the game was useda a kind of bible by writers. And there weren't many viable gaming companies when it was done by WEG. I'd be interested to know who you thought could have done a better job.

Red Saber said:

That'll show 'em! ..and maybe a sharply-worded comment on Yelp?

Red Saber said:

Seriously though: There are Jedis just not yet as PCs, so either do some houseruling, deal with the fact that they, for once, served the fans first that also like other parts of Star Wars first or go back to the old System. You are entiteld to have an opinion, to communicate it and to like or dislike stuff, but beeing the only tro.. guy making waves implies strongly that your house may resemble something bridgy.

with king regards

a troll feeder

Germaniac said:

Well you would be surprised at what whining can accomplish. While this link (posted before) refers more to video games, it still is very representative of the culture. Although I would be surprised if even talking to the designers does anything for some diehard "I want my Jedi" enthusiasts to assuage their indignation and make them feel better about FFG's gameplan. It is doubtful that anyone at FFG was unaware of the popularity of the Jedi. I think they made a concious decision to design the game as they did. The only test of whether or not it was the right decision is how the game sells.

mouthymerc said:

Which does kinda mean they withheld the bits that people actually want in the hope of double dipping and selling people two books instead of one, which, I dunno, isn't something I think we should be encouraging.

Not very consumer friendly. Not consumer friendly at all.

--

Now, that is a very uncharitable reading of the situation, but I think it is at least in part a consideration of doing it like this. And there are advantages of this release format. Alowing a space where non Jedi can have their own adventures without being overshadowed, and the spike in interest that a 'new game' will bring down the road. But there are also distinct disadvantages, principally that if you like Jedi two years is too long to wait, and definitely too long to wait if the eventual Jedi rules end up hamstrung by being retrofitted to a system that wasn't designed with Jedi in mind.

ErikB said:

If you want to ascribe a negative connotation to why they did it, that's on you. It was a choice they made. Not because they were trying to shaft people, but because the game they were designing is a return to the basics of the original trilogy. Maybe they had some advance warning or hints that the OT would be the best way to go considering the sale to Disney or maybe they just wanted to return to where it all started. Whatever the reason, I don't think making them out to be some conniving corporation is going to solve anything and make them come out with Jedi any faster. You're just going to annoy people and end up ignored for the most part. Or become the butt of ongoing jokes around here. I'm sure if they get enough people contacting them directly they may take it more seriously, but here all we have is a few people moaning and griping over and over saying the same things again and again.

ErikB said:

I don't think they will be hamstrung unless you want them to be head and shoulders above everyone else. If what you are looking for are uber-Jedi then I think you will be disappointed, but not totally, because the system is narratively driven it will not be hard to allow those that want them to have their uber-Jedi. For those of us that want a system more balanced for all types of characters we will be happy and for those that want there to be a disparity between Jedi and everyone else it will be easy to bump them up. It is much easier to unbalance a balanced system than it is to balance an unbalanced system.

mouthymerc said:

So you don't think that the fact that they could then sell a Jedi book to people at a later date featured in to the decision to do it that way at all?

Common chap, you know it was on their minds. I'm not saying it is the whole of the reason for doing it this way, but I think it is certainly a factor.

--

Also, do you actually have any interest at all in playing a Jedi?

ErikB said:

Of course they planned it this way. The three books are analogous with the original trilogy and the progression of the characters and the story. It's pretty obvious FFG designed it this way on purpose. I do not think they did it this way to milk people. As I said, if you want to ascribe some other motivation that's on you.

ErikB said:

I play everything because I am usually the GM for all my group's games. I'm the only one who has picked up this game so I run it. The closest I get to playing Star Wars is SW:TOR.

So if your point is that I am not interested in playing Jedi, I am interested in playing anything if the concept strikes me. Jedi, though, are not what define Star Wars for me. They are only one part of that universe.

mouthymerc said:

Not even just a little?

ErikB said:

mouthymerc said:

Did i stutter?

Holy sarlaac-nuts, people! Why the hate?! If you're upset with FFG for whatever reason, then e-mail them and politely tell them. Attacking each other, for whatever side of the fence you're on, is silly. There's a LOT to love about this game and if you can't find it, maybe it's not for you. If you can, then focus on that. I've mentioned before that I love Jedi and would love to see them, but what they've made is still amazing. I'm not shaking with anticipation for the second book, but I'm sure it'll be a ton of fun, too.

For now, let's focus on making our own Jedi and such as well as Force powers and weapons, etc. We've got the tools and can do it. Hell, maybe FFG will see some fan-made favorite and think, "People love that. Let's make sure we use it". I dunno. What I DO know is that being jerks to each other doesn't do anything but take energy better spent on making the game better.

Group hug. Now.

And again, people need to appreciate the disappointment others feel at having to wait so long to play Jedi officially. They ARE a big part of SW, even though the focus is on the Empire Era and I'd rather see all of us help each other to make this game really stand out than rant and spit vitriol.

Can't speak for others but there's no hate here. And I can appreciate that some people feel Jedi are the center of the Star Wars setting that everything else revolves around and that they want their Jedi now, even if I don't agree with it. And I also realize that beyond dropping the rules for Jedi in their laps nothing is going to make them feel better about the fact that Jedi aren't going to be done till Force & Destiny. I'm just having fun discussing this even though this really amounts to an exercise in futility.

mouthymerc said:

It wasn't directed at you, but I'll hate you if you want. We all need that. Seriously, it was more that I can't stand to see great things sullied and the people sad about Jedi have such passion, I'd love to see what they might come up with on their own.

mouthymerc said:

Well, like I say, is there any really pressing reason why they can't be dropped in to our laps earlier, either as a playtest document to ensure they will actually work when they finally properly arrive or as a Mountain Witch style minigame, in which Seven Jedi team up to defeat a threat?

I promise I won't try to play a Jedi in a game where anyone else isn't.

ErikB said:

Don't know for sure, but I would say that the simple reason is that they are not planning it that way. FFG planned how they were going to to do their game and this is it. And it seems to be working. Except for a few disgruntled people, many people are enjoying the game. Beta book selling pretty much out, if not completely out (no idea for sure). Beginners box seems very popular. Anticipation for the SW:EotE Core book seems high. As does anticipation for future releases. The narrative gameplay seems to be attracting many people too, so it is not just the Star Wars name. If you make a fun game, they will come to the table.

And really if you don't care about balance, what is stopping you from playing Jedi right now? The lack of a few powers, talents? It is a simple matter to hand out Force Ratings, Force powers, and lightsabers and call the character a Jedi if you are not worried about balance.

ErikB said:

It always amuses me when I see people who act like this is a bad thing. RPG company finds a way to milk it's customers? Brilliant . Why? Because it means more product.

If FFG had decided to release SW as a single game (including Jedi) then two years down the road we'd be seeing the line winding down, releasing 1 - 3 supplements a year (at best). You're seriously upset that Jedi get their own game? That means that Jedi get their own supplements, their own adventures. If you're a Jedi fanatic who doesn't give a toss about the rest of the setting that's brilliant, because it means you get products focused to your interest. If you're a SW fanatic who loves it all that's brilliant, because it means you get more material overall. All you need to do is wait 2 years. In the meantime you get to explore other elements of the setting… and if you don't like that, just find something else to play.

macd21 said:

I agree, I just think no Jedi for two years is an unfortunate side effect to be minimised rather than, yknow, the point of doing it this way.

@ TalkingMuffin: I just wanted to say that I think you are incredibly classy. I understand from what you have written that you get where we are coming from and you definitely have a positive attitude.

Where I am coming from and I am guessing many other Jedi fans on this board are coming from is that we are looking forward to a Star Wars product done by FFG’s. However, the product that we are getting is looking more and more like it intentionally marginalizes those who are not interested in the outer rim, cowboys in space paradigm. For those of us who both define and identify Star Wars as a story that revolves around Jedi, then we are patted on the head and told to wait like a good child.

Now I am “sure” that there will be a few things in the release. First of all, I am certain there will be a one page explanation/apology to those fans who want Jedi in their Star Wars at the start of the book. This page long explanation/apology will explain why there is no Jedi and that this is somehow a good thing. (personally I roll my eyes at this but my gut says it will be there). I am also sure that there will be some type of force exile path in the book. This Force exile will also have a small “side bar” that suggest how you can make them into some sort of working Jedi in your game. (I equate this to how AEG did their L5R 4 ^th edition book. Sloppy and lazy).

Regarding Gencon, I too am planning on going to Gencon this year and I am incredibly excited about it. I also know a few people who are going, all of which (myself included) are planning on expressing their frustration with FFG’s decision. I am sure they are going to roll their eyes when I start talking to them about two years being an absurd wait but if they do…then I just won’t support their product. I guess it’s that simple.

@ErikB: I am completely in agreement with you regarding their release dates and milking for money. The idea that they “need” to do it this way is also absurd in my opinion. If D&D released their core book in three parts and said something like “we are breaking our core book into three books, Melee, Sneaking and Magic. The Wizard and other spell classes will come out two years from our first release.” You would quickly see that two years was WAY too long for such a release schedule and it would not fly. However for some reason, it is alright that we have to wait for Jedi and by not waiting, we are being awful people. That is asinine.

@Red Saber: In regards to the April fool’s joke. I don’t think it is that big of a deal. It was clear to me that it was aimed at those who are not in support of FFG’s decision. Whether it was conscious or unconscious, it was still a joke. I don’t think it was tasteful but it was very well written.

As for the delay that has occurred with EotE, we can only hope that it is because they are adding in some more Jedi material.