ErikB said:

Oh look, we're getting differnet books that do just that. They're just doing it out of order as opposed to what you want. And I don't want to be rude, but given that at the end of the day all 3 books will exist, what does it matter the order that they go in? Sure one decision might be "better" or more fun than another, but the books are going to exist so what exactly is the issue?

That said though, all of these games are going to operate off the same core system, which is fine, it should scale well enough to cover either angle of it. And because they're the same system, characters could participate in either game. Just realize that in the Jedi game, non-jedi characters are all going to be the Boba Fetts, the Wedge Antilles, the Crix Madines of the galaxy.

ErikB said:

Um, what? Seriously, did that just happen?

Oh yeah, that just happened, and hopefully we finally see how stupid this argument actually is. His comment immeadiately prior is also quite telling:

ErikB said:

First, he's acting as if we're stopping him from playing some games where he can be a Jedi ("no one can make superman comics"), like every other Star Wars RPG ever, in addition to every "setting-free" out there. Or maybe he thinks Force and Destiny is already done, and we're telling him he can't have it.

Second, it's pretty clear he's totally on board with separate games for separate aspects of the "Star Wars Experience" ("I really don't see any good will ever come of trying to have mixed parties", & the it-goes-both-ways argument above), he's just pissing and moaning that the one he wanted wasn't the first one to come out and now he has to wait and pout.

Frankly, I don't have much sympathy for that kind of thinking.

-WJL

PS He also completely neglected to address the point that some people (who aren't masochists, btw) enjoy the lower powered, still-kind-of-human Jedi, like Luke for most of the OT.

KommissarK said:

Sure, but two and a half years seems an awfully long time to wait. Why don't we bring it forwards.

I mean, no one cares what other people do in their games right? So there is no real reason to put it off any longer.

ErikB said:

Except for the whole project management/game development thing. They'd have to put all the time and money they have already invested in development and writing for Rebellion game to the side and start putting money into an entirely new project. Suddenly the EotE revenue stream has to support not only develoment of the Jedi book, but also the existing obligations on the work done for the Rebellion one.

Books like this for an expensive IP take a lot of time and money to produce, and FFG doesn't have limitless resources to completely scrap a plan like this midway through production, all to quiet some internet griping.

But in principal, if a way could be found to get Jedi rules in to the hands of those that want them on an advanced time scale, people would have no objection to it?

Doc, the Weasel said:

+1

ErikB said:

There are lots of reasons why "[they don't just] bring it forwards". They need to have the money together to cover all the costs for the game, firstly, so they can pay people to write it, edit it, lay it out, do art for it, print it, and ship it. The **** thing isn't written yet, and to get it written, playtested, passed through Lucas legal department, etc, before you even hit the art and layout processes, take the better part of several months. Then there is the pure economic fact that it is commercially better to get a years' worth of supplements out for the first book first, rather than ignore it and move straight on to the next corebook, as the longer a period is with no supplements, the greater the chance of it not selling as well when it is actually released (attention span for games drops off at a fairly quick rate for most people).

Unless you have any idea as to the actual processes at work that go towards a successful RPG line, from the release of one book to the continuation of the entire line, just going "bring it out sooner" just shows your ignorance. If you do have an understanding of what goes into making all this stuff, well, then you know just how idiotic your statement is.

Edit: ****, ninja'd!

ErikB said:

So long as this "advanced time scale" doesn't reduce the quality of the game, NO!

Why the h3ll would anyone NOT want the product earlier!?

Personally, I'd MUCH rather wait the 2 1/2 years if it means that we get a great Jedi product. Hell, I've already been waiting for one for over a decade since JK2, and I've never seen a Pencil and Paper one yet, so whats a few more years.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

However, as anyone with knowledge of the gaming industry knows, you can only choose 2 out of the 3 options: Fast, Good or Cheap.

If you want them right now, rushing them out, I can guarantee they won't be any good. Plus, since it's already been announced that Jedi will be in the last core book, that's the matter pretty much decided. It isn't going to get rushed out just because some people can't play Star Wars without being a Jedi.

LethalDose said:

Before ErikB is made into a bad guy, the $#!t comment is in regards to this quote. Funny how if we want Jedi in the game, we are $#!ts who want to take away your fun. It's alright to call us that? Note to self. Real classy. So if we want a game that is in the old republic, FFG can tell us no. You know… Because there is only the original trilogy. Good thing there is so much freedoms with this book. After all, Jedi are not important in the old republic.

I don't think anybody really believes that FFG couldn't quietly admit their mistake and bump the Jedi up the schedule, or that waiting 2 and a half years will in any way make the game better when it arrives.

So one has to wonder why people are so resistant to the idea of letting people play Jedi.

ErikB said:

Only people like you think it is a mistake. A few people loudly stating their opinion that more Jedi should have been in the first book. Considering the popularity of the Beta and the Beginners box I don't hink they are thinking the same thing.

MILLANDSON said:

yeah, no one would have wanted to tell a Jedi game from day one. Who could have possibly known that? I mean the marketing department would have had to have been geniuses to know that people may want to play an all Jedi game from the start. Some kind of magical power or something to know this.

ErikB said:

+ 50 points

Natch…………………………………………………………………………

Red Saber said:

I think they know exactly how popular Jedi are. I think they also know how popular the rest of the Star Wars galaxy is too and that it isn't just Jedi that make it so popular. So they came up with a theme and process for each book and laid out how they want to do it. Guess what? It seems to be working, for all the hew and cry that Jedi aren't done right off the game seems popular. Not only that but there is a cry for more stuff, like Jedi. Great sign for a new game.

MILLANDSON said:

"I had no choice. They arrived right before you did. I'm sorry."

(Now I want to see Han show up for the banquet, see Vader, and say "****, ninja'd!")

Red Saber said:

This isn't about "want Jedi" vs "don't want Jedi." I want Jedi in this game, and I've seen the sentiment echoed from most of the people in this thread. This is more about accepting that you sometimes have to wait for stuff.

Doc, the Weasel said:

You really don't have to wait two and half years for a tabletop roleplaying game. Especially not in 2013.

Red Saber said:

Yes, I said $#!t.

I did it to draw attention how obnoxious and disruptive player choices that, whether by design or not, overshadow all the other players choices.

I felt the need to make this point because the previous quote (which you neglected in your citation) implied that Jedi MUST be either:

• More powerful than other equivalently created characters OR
• They would be restrictive of player choice or excessively restrictive.

The implication being that not only did we have to allow the Jedi into a system that was not designed to handle them, but they must also be disruptive of the game balance already designed.

And I think that's a $#!ty point of view.

That's not to say that you are, individually, a $#!t, or have some quality that makes you inherently $#!ty, if you have that PoV. Basically, good people can do/say/think $#!ty things, and someone holding fast to that PoV, despite all the clear, rational arguments being presented to them may or may not fall into either the "good" or "$#!ty " person category.

Finally, if what you want to latch onto from that post a small word that could be changed to many many other words and have no bearing on the logical basis upon which the entire argument presented rests, you are free to do so. And I salute your rhetorical acumen.

-WJL

Right. At this point I think the question is how fast can FFG put together a beta version of their Jedi rules for the people who want them.

I don't think Gencon this year would be too much of an ask.

Any objections?

I will take a stab at your question… and I don't think you will like my answer.

IF (and that's a big if), FFG decides to do Beta tests for Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny, I think the soonest you will see anything will be sometime after GENCON in 2014. Age of Rebellion will have been released and we'll have had over a year of stress testing the basic system. That being said, there's already work by some enterprising gamers out there that are building homebrew rules for jedi. In fact there's already a specialization built over on the GSA forums. I believe it's called Lightsaber Duelist or something like that… Its pretty neat imho.

*points and laughs*

Okay, seriously, this again?

ErikB said:

Where/how in the **** did you come up with this!? [redaction mine, for once]

No, seriously! What makes you think that the rules of business, productivity, and human creatively have suddenly changed making this true. Can we look at some other examples?

How long has D&D 5th ed been in development , let alone released to market !?

How long did it take to release HERO 6th ed?

FFG's CEO made it very VERY clear during this 2012's In-Flight report that most games have a 6 - 24 month inception-to-shelf cycle. I beleive he said RPG's tend to have a longer development cycle and he definetely said beta testing adds to the length of development, but also improves quality.

And they're releasing 3 separate RPGs, one every twelve months!

And they're releasing the first one less than twelve months after it was announced!

You can keep repeating this ridiculous idea all you want, but it's never going to be true because of reality and facts. And more facts? The development cycles are getting longer on these projects because of the increased complexity of the products that we as the consumers expect! And it actually does take time to do it right, especially with big IP products.

So, yeah, actually you really do have to wait two and half years for a tabletop roleplaying. Especially in 2013.

-WJL

ErikB said:

They already did. They were in the Beta book and got a serious revamp in the first update to said book.

LethalDose said:

6 months gets us to just about in time for Gencon, but really next Christmas would do as well.

And they do have the core system in place, so that might speed things up.