This is just how FFG does a lot of it's RPG's. The Warhammer 40k line was done the same way. Release a core book with rules focusing on one type of gameplay to create a very specific experience for the players. It works pretty well with 40k so I don't see any reason it can't/won't work well for star wars as well.

About the only odd thing, which has already been pointed out, is the order in which they're releasing the books. If anything I would have thought rebels first, jedi second, and fringe 3rd. The reason I'm pretty sure they went this way is because they know a rebel or jedi system would sell no matter what but weren't sure a fringe system would sell if it followed a rebel/jedi release.

Personally, I know one of my players really wants to play a jedi but is ok with the force adept for now. They are disapointed but lack of "jedi" is not stopping them from playing the game and having fun with it.

If you really can't have fun playing star wars without jedi then homebrew something or wait for book three. Going on rants about how stupid FFG is for not doing jedi book 1 is just futile, childish, and annoying to be perfectly honest. Like others have already mentioned if you just add lightsaber skill training somehow then you will pretty much be able to do all the things we see Luke do in the original movies. Save the Yoda powered jedi for later.

Droma said:

I find it suspicious that MWP pulled Serenity (license expiry), and then FFG notices that a Firefly-type game is absent in the market*, then decides to go with the scoundrels mode first. I'm not certain which the order was, but I suspect they are related in one direction or the other.

I can easily understand putting Jedi off to 3rd… mostly to see if the rumored (now announced) Ep VII warps the Jedi further.

----

*Noting that Whedon was a gamer in college, and probably was playing Traveller, and that the tropes of Firefly really tightly match a certain style of play common in Classic Traveller… the tramp merchant spec trader doing patron jobs to make ends meet was a staple of CT. It's also an underserved element in MegaT, TNE, T4, and MGT….

aramis said:

I doubt FFG gave the Serenity game a second thought. It's not like it was a huge seller or anything.

Droma said:

I think the current is the order I would have chosen to release them. From a design standpoint, I suspect a Fringe campaign/system would be easier to 'balance' than a Military campaign/system, which is in turn easier to 'balance' than a Jedi campaign/system.

In other words, they learn from EotE to improve AoR which is more difficult to design than EotE, and use what they learn they use there to improve F&D which is more difficult to design than either of the previous two systems.

-WJL

Dance Commander said:

1) That is not what is being suggested, you're putting meaning and intention where there is none. I understand how you can interpret it that way, and sure some might actually come across as having that position, but I doubt that's the meaning or intention they're trying to convey. They're just meeting the unreasonable glowstick wielding hippy-lovers head on with the same tone and content in their posts - more or less.

2) You think its "disrespectful" that a game publisher doesn't follow you ideal path for game publishing, I'd say thats nigh on a narcissitic disorder there mate. You're being not only disrespectful, you're being inflammatory and lazy. Opinion or not, to accuse someone of "disrespect" because you disagree is, unreasonable. You can still choose - you have many games to choose from, and if its too much and too hard to make stuff yourself, there are many other games and people out there. Lots of people are making stuff for this game that lends it to other eras and styles of play. You're not only disrespectful of the people that are making the game(s) and trying to make the best game possible, you're disrespectful of your fellow gamers that take on what you define as "FFG's job" by making stuff up themselves. It is not FFG's job, its our own initiative, I guess I'm wrong in my assumption that most GMs generate their own material and stuff for their games - because that's obviously FFG's job…? What?

3) Well, there's quite a few people who don't mind. This third point is never going to get old or solved. People disagree about this, it does not make anyone more "right" than the other. It just comes down to respect for the people making games for us, being open minded and appreciative of their work rather than trolling and being disrespectful and self-centred. Not saying any side necessarily is inherently more respectful or less respectful than the others - but sure you could interpret some implications in it, but I'll let that be up to you - my intention is not to incite anger or provocation though.

Droma said:

Yep, people who want to play Jedi might buy a no Jedi book if it is the only Star Wars game in town, but probably wouldn't be as interested in a no jedi books if it came out two years after the Jedi game.

ErikB said:

At this point I have to assume you have not seen the beta rules.

The beta rules do contain rules for how the force is applied by PCs in the game. It contains the XP structures for force powers and how they are used. It contains a listing of how to scale Force Power from barely sensitive to impossibly powerful. It has systems for how a PC can "give in" to the dark side for temporary bonuses. We are given the full power table for force persuasion, sensing, and moving objects. Its not just "low level" versions of these powers, its the whole thing (unless they create some epic version of these power tables). Its actually an interesting system as xp is spent to modify the power as a whole. Not learn distinct abilities that do X, Y, or Z (e.g. it doesn't treat different magnitudes of force powers like a spellbook)

In the original writing of the beta rules, a force user who had invested in the move object tree could easily wreck encounters by throwing large objects and ending almost anything (because at the time there was nothing to resist that with and the damage was scaling quite frighetningly. Did I mention that using these actually wasn't that hard for a force power 1/2 character if they were using the dark side?). These things have been addressed as a result of the beta.

In other words, the beta rules, and most likely EotE do have rules that let players use force abilities. Therefore, yes, the book is at least useful for sussing out problems with force powers years before the jedi book comes out.

Also, its not just "rules for jedi." The system itself also needs to be tested out in play to create "good" rules. There could be oddities in the dice mechanics, perhaps the advantage/triumph/threat/despair tables need to be tweaked a bit. Maybe skills need to be added/removed/modified to better represent and simplify how the PCs interact with the world.

I don't intend to make this too pointed at you @ErikB, but it seems that you have an incorrect sense of what it would take to add Jedi to this system. That somehow there is some sizable portion of the rules that are missing to cover this. I'm trying to say that adding Jedi/more focused on force users is a matter of adding the careers/specializations (so career skills, specialization skills, specialization trees, misc. specialization bonuses/requirements). The skills are already laid out by the system, and most likely no new skill types need to be added. The trees are probably the big part of the rules that need work, but EotE has helped lay a framework for how those trees are laid out (e.g. how Dedication tends to be at the end of the tree, how they often contain repeats of the same ability). Just write in a blurb that Jedi either get, or can make lightsabers. As far as the jedi/force user specialization tree goes, I'm willing to bet that about 75% of the talents/abilities they get from their tree are already existing talents/abilities that other classes get too (+1 wound theshold, simple things like that). The rest of their abilities will most likely grant the types of bonuses we see for alot of other classes, just in a slightly different light (oh look, I can spend a force point to do X with boost dice).

The only other portion that would seriously be needed is an expanded force powers section. From the movies, the only powers the system really would "need" to add are speed (not sure if that'd contain leaping as well, but its kind of the same topic), lightning, choking. If you beleive Vader taking a blaster shot to the palm was a matter of the force, then some sort of energy resistance. Other abilities could be added, but many are offshoots of existing powers and would really just be modification types.

The point is, the core rules are still the same. You still form dice pools and interpret said dice. That can be done with a jedi-less system, and the problems in those rules can be sussed out.

Its still just comes back to selected setting (no jedi), power level (starting on the low end and moving up seems wiser than starting from the high end and going down), and page length (a "complete" rule system would still need about 40-50 more pages to do jedi justice (assuming 5 careers, 15 specializations (4 pages per career), slight modifcations to rules regarding the seriousness of turning to the dark side (3 pages), 5-10 more force powers (2 pages each), possibly lightsaber customization options (1 page), jedi/force user fluff (5 pages), GM advice on the force (1 page). And at this point a "complete" ruleset would also need to do the military forces justice as well).

When the new D&D comes out, they shouldn't bother putting in dragons until 2 years later. They aren't really important to the game and we could always substitute them with drakes. Good enough. Makes sense.

Red Saber said:

Yea, because you could always play as a dragon in DnD, especially with the very first books…

*rolls eyes*

Jegergryte said:

ive read through this thread and you seem to be the only one who is being troll-tastic. Chill out bro.

I don't think anyone is being intenionally trolling. Just expressing their views. At the end of the day, though, FFG will put out the game they want to. Now if enough people complain and they feel it is necessary, maybe something more Jedi-like may show up (I doubt it though). Otherwise we will get the Edge game with some Force powers for now, probably some more Force abilities and specializations in Age of Rebellion, and full on Force abilities and specializations in Force & Destiny.

Personally, while Jedi are a part of Star Wars for me, they are not what makes Star Wars what it is for me. There is nothing new about the theme of knights or space knights. They are certainly interesting in how they were incorporated, but so are the Green Lanterns or the Lensmen or paladins. The characters and the stories are what makes it enjoyable for me. So the fact that full-on Jedi are not included yet doesn't diminish this as a Star Wars game for me.

This will be my only post in this thread. This is my opinion, but I feel FFG chose not only the logical path, but the canon path as well.

I will not reference the prequel trilogy as they are NOT Classic Era, and I will not touch EU with a ten meter lightsaber… FFG stated when the game was announced that they will be designing this game for that period. They will surely come out with additions, but I am specifically speaking to the core books announced. So with that said…

Ep IV: Star Wars - Completely Fringe, with smatterings of Force sensitivity and a nice Jedi teaser to whet the appetites of people. We are only truly introduced to the Rebellion in the last act of the film. (JEDI trappings appearing in the film - Luke is given his father's lightsaber, Luke trains on the Mil. Falcon, Luke watches as Ben is struck down by Vader)

Ep V: The Empire Strikes Back - Starts with full frontal Rebellion vs. Empire. We see the Imperial Fleet in all its glory for the first time and it is decidedly a darker film with the Rebellion constantly on the ropes. As this arc of the story still centers around a force sensitive now fully engaged in discovering his destiny, he finds yet another teacher (NPC) to guide him further along the path of the Jedi. The story also further advances the other characters in a dark downward spiral as the Empire holds them in their clutches. (Jedi Trappings - Wampa cave, Yoda Training, and the Luke has his ass handed to him by Vader)

Ep VI: Return of the Jedi - Well the title should say it all. Jedi influences abound in this film. Which is appropriate. We meet the Emperor, see the extent of his Force powers and watch as Luke handily defeats the Vader, only to have his ass handed to him again, this time by the Emperor, and in a suprise twist Vader saves his life, but dies in the process. Luke is now a fully feldged Jedi and the story concludes.

So with all that, let me rename the episodes.

Ep IV - Edge of the Empire

Ep V - Age of Rebellion

Ep VI - Force and Destiny

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Darian Ocana said:

Short and simple. I agree with your entire post, Darian, but this was my favorite part.

-WJL

Dance Commander said:

Two things here.

1) FFG announced the products, and release dates, prior to the Disney buy-out… thus prior to any movie announcements.

2) FFG is not trying to "figure out balance" or any other magic… they put Jedi in a seperate book percisely because of balance. The Force book will be the most powerful player characters available. (Much like Space Marine).

Red Saber said:

ErikB said:

That is rad! So true! Haha

Darian Ocana said:

i don't think canon has much point to an RPG unless players are doing a reenactment of the movies. Cosplay? No ones game is going to be canon. I agree with the pro Jedi crowd on here. Let us tell our story. Powerful Jedi knights, ship battles, wookies, bikinis..wookies in bikinis whatever. But what is up with telling us that Star Wars in only the episode 4 movie and only the original trilogy. That's bogus.

Dance Commander said:

i don't think I could say it better! Yeah, I always thought the scenes in the movie where queen panda..something was shooting at droids was much more fun than lightsaber battles. Keep that awesome jedi stuff out of my game.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Then the prequel films went and spoilt it. I have personally deleted those films, and their presentation of Jedi, from my personal canon of Star Wars. Jedi cannot stand in front of hordes of guys and deflect their blaster fire pretty much unthreatened.

So do you actually want to play a disappointing Jedi, or just prevent other people from having fun playing the Jedi they envisage?

ErikB said:

I think this speaks to the heart of the problem with your argument: You think Jedi balanced to be as capable as character with a similar level of experience is the same as 'disappointing Jedi'.

There's inherent problem with making Jedi more powerful than similarly experienced characters:

• If the Jedi is much more powerful than the rest of the characters, and the GM scales the encounter to challenge the other characters, the Jedi's player is left with little to no challenge. Without challenge, the player does not actually experience EotE as a game*.

• If the Jedi is much more powerful than the rest of the characters, and the GM scales the encounter to challenge the Jedi, the other players are left ineffectual. Without the ability to affect the outcome or achieve goals, the other players don't have an interactive experience, and therefore don't experience EotE as a game*.

LethalDose said:

I see it more as people trying to insist no one anywhere makes superman comics because they like cops and robbers.

I don't have much sympathy for that kind of thinking.

I really don't see any good will ever come of trying to have mixed parties. No one will get what they want. Let the Jedi be Jedi, and play a Zack Snyder version of 7 Samurai with Jedi, and the smugglers be smugglers, and play Boardwalk Empire in space and we will get along better.

Totally agree with Lethal Dose. If one player breaks the game, it breaks the game for all players. I've seen this happen in too many groups to think it is merely a therotical concept.

Side note, has anyone calculated how long it would take to go through the entire force exile tree and upgrade the force powers entirely using the recommended XP values, based on playing once per week or once every two weeks?

Is it possible that people won't be "waiting to play Jedi for two years," but will actually be building up to playing them?

Also, no one is saying you can't play Jedi or have superman comics or whatever. There are numerous Star Wars RPGs out there that have Jedi. Or heck, go play the Jedi hack for Dogs in the Vineyard and do all the awesome Jedi stuff you could ever want.

cparadis said:

Sure, it just also applies when some selfish **** tries to impede everyone from playing a superhero game so they can play a smuggler.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Okay, seriously, I acknowledge that I've bring up my credentials in these discussions, but I do it when I need to put statements or view points into perspective.

But this? If you're name doesn't appear in the credits of the corebook, you are/were in-all-caps-NOT one of the "Saga Edition developers".

If the real devs credited you for "Additional Design" in a splat book or two late in the life of the game, I can't see how you can claim to so much more insight to the fundamental system design decisions that went into make the game as to invalidate other people opinions about it.

Call this post antagonistic. Call me antagonistic. Fine. But at least it's honest.

-WJL