As a player I really like the dice mechanics AND the action cards. I don't know if it's psychological or what but I find that having my action cards before me is better than having abilities listed on a character sheet. The cards often prompt outside the box thinking and interesting actions, especially with the support cards. No cards would necessitate a multiple-page character sheet where I think skills/talents/actions might get lost in the shuffle, especially in my case where I only play a couple of times a month and sometimes forget what some of them are.

Emirikol said:

Then we can name at least one good thing from D&D 3, 3.5, 4…

I have heard that there is even a D&D 5? I hope they do a good work, I liked AD&D, I found it a nice upgrade from the old D&D.

Cheers,

Yepes

I have heard that there is even a D&D 5? I hope they do a good work, I liked AD&D, I found it a nice upgrade from the old D&D.Then we can name at least one good thing from D&D 3, 3.5, 4…

* I'm currently playtesting 5e D&D (aka D&D 'next'). Its practically exactly the same as Basic D&D from 1981. It is very simplified and very generic with token attempts at allowing players to better min-max their statistics through choosing the appropriate "background statistical variants." There's a reason that their best author jumped ship though and I attribute that to his inflexibility and inability to kiss butt to the Hasbro execs. Thankfully we can say this here because on RPG.net you'd get banned in a heartbeat for not giving subbelt-favors to some kind of D20 deity.

* 4e turned out to be the worst kind of D&D simply because it thought (wrongly) that people would want to pretend that they are MMO computers and that "marking" opponents with so many stickies that you can't even identify the creature, and that having damage per second calculated by the player, and a total cluster f' of required-laptop-computing just to run a stinking pseudo-rpg, that people would jump at the chance to play a WOW-like experience, but without the MMO doing the calculations (GM instead! yippee!), and without artwork and with a sales-tactic generation of "pseudo-fluff." D&D 4e was overall, disingenuous. It doesn't have a defined world, yet you are pigeon-holed into some kind of D&D-entity-as-fluff approach, but without a roleplaying aspect. I think I would have loved it wihtout the massive rube-goldberg machine that it became, the fact that it was impossible to house-rule (wihtout having repercussions f'n up the whole system), and that the GMs job was a horrible, horrible, nightmare of accounting for 50-60 simultaneous modifiers just to run a simple kobold encounter.

What did I like about 4e? It was balanced. It had "abilities" throughout the full range of levels for all characters, even though they were just empty combat-actions.

* 3.5E D&D What was good? Primarily the RPGA producing massive amounts of scenarios and play through the Living greyhawk system that had story, background, and purpose beyond selling the next book at Borders Bookstore. Thank Khaines Murderous Claws that Paizo picked it up. Too bad they're limited to the incessent math-heavy game that is still stuck in a dungeon-crawl mode. The game system had evolved with 3E D&D, but Paizo failed to refine the game. A character is just a giant spreadsheet without feel or content for any purpose for the giant stacks and stacks of modifers upon modifiers. More races and classes have not been the answer, so hopefully their book releases will actually enhance the experience.

* Up until 4e we had TWO print publications specifically for D&D…then it all went to the equivalent of an infomercial on QVC.

*AD&D 2e is what we really played the most throughout college. It was a broken mish-mash of all kinds of stuff that hadn't evolved Feats and a decent skill system yet, but it was blessed, again with tons of content, scenarios, and a large audience (and also the RPGA). It was a sh*tty system for those of us who didn't have or know any better. We were WalMart shoppers who actually thought we were getting a good deal. AD&D2 suffered from the same issue WFRP2 had: It was watered down content. No assassins? Nope. It might scare someone's mom. WFRP2 (and 3e moreso) did exactly the same thing leaving 1e WFRP's tradition of being a truly dark and gritty game with truly dark and gritty words on paper..not just alluded to.

* IF 2nd edition WFRP hadn't stolen the idea for Talents from D&D, I think it would have faded into obscurity. Chris Pramas and his gang gathered just enough depth from D&D3e's feats and their own instincts to justify a new edition that didn't have the original harsh, darkness that scares off the unicorns & faeries crowd. I conjecture that had 2e gained some more depth for character special abilities (hell, they could have pulled it off without cards), I think we wouldn't have 3e in it's current form. 2e simply didn't have the foresight to have any special abilities beyond just another book of spells. All editions suffer from too much focus on SPELLCASTERS and not enough on the other 98% of careers IMHO. YOu don't need a mechanic for all this stuff, but you do need more content beyond the supernatural that is still interesting. Back to Chris Pramas, but he seems to be pulling that off in the Freeport+WFRP2 game that's runnign at a new convention.

Game systems don't typically matter, except if you have players that are too lazy to contribute in a meaningful way, or unless you are buried in stacks and stacks of looking up rules and having to get a masters degree to learn the 800,000 modifiers required to grapple, call-shot, or fight skeletons in a swamp with arrows instead of blunt weapons.

jh

How do you not have card and not have to refference a book when you have characters each with three to nine unique abilities they can perform? Does your group really memorize them all word for word so well that when an odd circumstance comes up you don't need to refference anything? If so bravo.

DevoutBadger said:

Sorry Devout, I am a bit lost in the thread, there are like two or three parallel conversations.

Is this a question for me? and if so, to which game do you refer, where PC have to memorize especial habilities that are not writen down in the character sheet?

Thx

Yepes

This discusion when a littel of topic I think. I thought we were talking about the best and worst part of WFRP 3e? So the thing we players/GMs like in it and don't. So maybe I will tell what I like in this games and what is not the best part of it.

I like in WFRP 3e:

• the dice mechanic (best and strogest part of this edition)
• the enviroments that have different effect like burning building or ruins or old dirty road
• the range becouse it easy to say something is not that far away and not have to measure the distances
• the round timing , so only one free manouver and one action per character
• the Ranks that depend on EXP points
• the henchmen rules

I don't like in WFRP 3e:

• all time You need cards and tokens
• the game takes to much of a table space and it's not easy to store all components
• the core set has not included all wizard schools of magic and all priest faiths (only 3 of each)
• too much careers that no one plays, really belive me I play WFRP for over 15 years now, with some stops for other titles, and in that time no one in my 4 groups of players never played such careers like servant or scribe and many others. So in my opinion it's too many careers that are not used and not enought choices for players to create a unique characters over time. Players in many cases buy the cards that are the most powerful one and many other are just thrown away.
• the book that don't have all the informations about the Empire so if noone has ever played WFRP and does not know the setting it is hard for him to find himself in it

So what I would like to see is a new or updated edition of the game with good thick books that let's you play without all components. And edition that gives players and the GM with a core set all the tools needed to play and just expands with every supplement. I really enjoyed my first session in SW Bigginers Game and I like what I see, especialy the content, for SW EotE Core Set. I don't know if someone here or on a different forum said that Jay Little when asked about SW RPG said it's and updated and better version of WFRP, or something like that. I think that it is a lot of truth in those words. WFRP 3e is a good game and I enjoyed it but with time it has too many weak parts for me. The weakest are the reprints of parts of the game and how expansive the game becomes becouse of all componets.

In the end I would like to remeber some thing from last year first were the rumours of a new edition of WFRP approching if they are true or not I don't know. The second is the Christmas sale that looks like the one that was made for WFRP 2e before WFRP 3e come. The 3rd is the lack of information about this line from FFG and the feeling that FFG is loosing interest in WFRP 3e becouse it's not saleing that good. Maybe it's really coming the time to say good bay to WFRP 3e and wait for any annoucement of WFRP 3.5 or 4e? I don't know what FFG plans for WFRP but I hope that is all the best.

Cheers and happy gaming

Yepesnopes said:

It is a bit of a theoretical. How would you accomplish giving characters abilities without needing a book or cards for refference, it sounds like you either don't play games that have these abilities or have very big character sheets.

We just don't have many games in common.

Beren Eoath, several of those issues you list seem small or personalized (not enough space for cards), some seem a bit applicable to every game ("no one has played a bard in my pathfinder game, that is like 10 pages wasted!")and some seem a bit contradictory (not having all the mages and priests). You realise EotE only has a handful of classes and races and you have to pick up more books for the others as well, yes?

I just thought DevoutBadger that sometime those small thing are annoing. I wuold rather have less careers that would fit the setting and are playable then have o lot of them and many will never be used or unplayable.

About the races/classes and SW EotE - the same is with all games. With every expansion there are commming new races and clases. That's what expansions are for. - too bring more fun.

I just would rather use a book with a good index then flip through cards every time I need to find something. One of the thing I did not like in 3e was the condition cards - when someone was undetr a cndition I must flip through them all to find a proper one.

Like someone said there is no perfect game, but I would like to see WFRP comming to perfection closer then it is now. The way I see it , it looks like WFRP 3e is ending and I would just want to know what will FFG do about it. Will they continue the ;line or make a new one that will sale better. I think that many players from previous edition would buy a new WFRP when it would come in books. I don't know why RPG players do not like cards but many of them do. So a new edition 3.5 or 4.0 of WFRP, that would be compatible with 3e or not, that would have all the best part from every previous edition and some new ideas could unite players from every edition.

The reason for me when I started this disucion was to convince FFG that they should give us any info of the future of WFRP. I don't care if they would say then continue the 3e line or make a new one but we as players should know what will happen to our game.

Cheers

PS. I would be very pleased if FFG would give us any announcement.

Beren Eoath said:

I am not certain why you think WFRP3 is not going to continue be supported.

I am of the opposite opinion whereby it will receive 1-2 supplements per year + 1-2 PoD content per year.

Then in a couple years, we will see a reedition of the Core box, structred with a different content, and perhaps a streamlinging of some rules, and then more of the routine supplements.

The future will tell.

In any case I actually like what you don't like.

I love cards, and I don't mind tokens.

I have a big table, and I would advise any serious gamer to get one,

I don't needs all wizard schools and priest faiths in the basic box. I think they did a great choice of selecting three of each and give them a relatively wide range of spell options. I could have done without any magic in the base box tbh.

I have seen beggars and commoners at my table, and will continue to. WFRP has always been about careers. If you don't like careers are you sure you are playing the right game?

You can get all the information you want on any topic you want linked to the WH world on internet and past supplements. I am very glad they structured their books on setting a mood and a genre, and not on yet another atlas-like description of whatever small village that has a 99% chance of never seeing any play. And when it does see play, it is only for a split second. I am much happier with just mentions of possible things, and styles, and then more extensive work on scenarios.

All in all I think WFRP 3 is a great edition. I think we could do with a little streamlining, perhaps a rebalancing of some systems to make the setting more difficult, but I am happy WFRP 3 is still on the store shelves.

LONG LIVE WFRP 3!!! WTG FFG!!!

I agree with Yepesnopes that the real innovation in WFRP3 is only the dice system.

But the cards do provide a lot of (combat & spell) options without having to look-up the rules in several rulebooks.

Yes, in many RPGs you don't have to constantly refer to the rulebook(s), but those RPGs have much less combat/spell options available [that's not a flaw, just a question of style & preferences].

So if you want a game with more emphasis on combat/spell options, the cards are really helpful. If you want more storytelling, no need for all those cards, but the special dices are still a nice tool.

DevoutBadger said:

Someone, I can't remember who, made the point that as soon as d&d 4th came out people started clamouring for cards to make tracking the powers easy. Then WFRP 3rd comes out, using cards from the outset… and people didn't like it. Personally I like the cards. For the kind of game it is it is the perfect way to keep track of it. Missing them now I am playing a magical character in a pathfinder campaign ("Wait… what does Detect evil do again?"). I can understand complaing about the sheet weight of compenents, most of which are not essential (only the action cards and dice really. Talents, Career abilities, wounds etc didn't need to be cards), and some of the mechanics are a bit weird and very boardgamey (talent slotting), and the balance goes a bit out of whack past about rank 2 or 3, but the action cards are really not an issue.

I personally don't think the fact that an average check is a likely pass is a problem. In fact I think that is kind of good (certainly didn't feel that way when we played it though). However, at higher levels the fact that combat difficulties didn't scale really meant that combat kind of became a matter of which side could wallop the other quickly enough.

LMAO!!! I was over at the SW EotE forums and many of the forum members where stating that they hope that FFG adds Action Cards, and Stance Trackers to the system, furthermore they hope that a mechanic similar to the Spell Casting for WFRP 3E is added to some of the upcoming Force Powers! LOL I couldnt help but laugh out loud at the fact that many of the WFRP 3e players are debating about streemlining the system to be more like SW EotE, and the SW players are asking for it to be more like WFRP 3e.

Just goes to show, we gamers are never happy.

HMM, FFG just released a new POD for 20$ with only a few cards, and now You all can't tell they game is cheap. A game that is too expensive for players will not stay on the marked for long. And WFRP 3e is getting more and more expensive with every expansions. By the way I readed a report of how good any games ware selling in 2012 - from FFG the best selling RPG is W40k printed in book forms without cards and any other useless, for me, accesories. The WFRP 3e was out of the first 10 best selling RPGs. Looks like SW will be one of the bestsellers for this year and it will be published the same way as W40k RPGs are. I hope that this year will bring us a new edition of WFRP - I know FFG will not annouce this until they will have it all made to go for printers- that will look like SW EotE.

Today I had a talk with a friend who is working in a shop with games (in one of the European distributor). We talked about WFRP and he told me that many of WFRP 3e supplements are out of print and FFG will not reprint them us far ust they know. For me this is another sign that the end of 3e is near.

Don't get me wrong I like the game, it is fun but I think it could be ever better without cards and other useless, in my opinion, accesories. maybe FFG should consiedr makeing a new line that would let You play without cards so in book format. And then maybe they should make optional cards in expansions. Not like it is now when cards are a must have (in the Lite version You still need cards to play). I think this option would please all players - the ones that want to play without cards and those that want to use them. The game in books format would be cheaper for everyone and You could play the game with only books, pencil, dice and a character sheet. And every one who would want to have cards would just buy a box with cards and could use them as they what.

Maybe someone at FFG would consider my idea.

Cheers

Beren Eoath said:

I think with the launching of SW EotE, there is no time for a new edition of Warhammer this year, and besides, wouldn't they do like with SW EotE? preselling a beta to allow public play testing?

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

Hmm, interesting thought abuot the beta but many of Euroean players, most of WFRP players are from Europe I think, wouldn't have a chance to get it.

If I remebere good, there is a new leading designer that was hired by FFG to make WFRP, it was a couple of months ago. So I think that there is a chance of announcing a new WFRP this year especialy if it would be compatible with 3e. That would be a 3.5 edition. But if they would change it to look more like W40k RPGs or SW RPGs then it would take more time.

I still think that the best way of publishing WFRP would be to publish it in book format (like SW or W40k RPGs). With and optional expansions with cards so that everybody would be satisfied. The old players could play without all the stuff they don't need like cards, but everybody who would like to play with cards could buy a card expansion wthat would allow him to to do so. That way every player could customise the game the way he wants.

This could be made very easy. We could have the same stats as in 3e but with a larger skill list. We still could have talents but without slots. And Abilities that would be active and passive. Active abilities would work all the time and passive would be activeted by cost (for example by 1 stress or fatigue). For a test you could use all passive abilities but only one active. The active abilities could be similar to action cards from WFRP 3e. This would look similar to SW. That way we could throw out all tokens and cards to play the game leaving all custom dice. For players that would want to have those on cards FFG could publish and expansion with talents and abilities on cards, with stand-ups and every other useless for some players stuff. Everyone would be pleased by such an edition, maybe even the players from 1st and 2nd edition would come back to the game.

Jicey said:

I think that misses the point a bit. Sure, people have used action cards before. The innovation was in recognising that by including them by default they could create a far more complex game that would otherwise be viable. The range of options (and the wide varience between those options) presented in the cards is greater than in most other games. I think the guides were a failure as a result. Sure, they were what people were asking for, but I think that once folks got their hands on them they realised it wasn't really workable to play the game without the cards.

What about stance, talent socketing, party sheets, trait match ups for leveling, fatigue, & stress? Were these concepts done before in an rpg?

How about the artwork? Was this not an incredibly high-value artwork product (with the exception of the daemonette in Lure of Power?)

jh

I could envision a redux of v3 that walks and talks like SW:EotE but offers backwards compatibility with v3 products and shifts all the cards that have been released thus far to POD

Daedalum said:

PODs are to expensive so I would say big box card expansions would be better. They are cheaper and every shop can have those very soon after the release.

Backward capability would be nice but it not a must have for me. If they would do it it would mean that they still care about players who bought the WFRP 3e. Besides I think it can be done very easy. Talents would be Talents but witout sockets, Specialisations would be like active Abilities and Action cards would be passive Abilities. My previous post clears this up.

Cheers

Emirikol said:

None of this things are new, for sure not fatigue and stress concepts.

The talent socketing may be new in the rpg world, but not the talents itself. And in my opinion the socketing talents mechanics is one the worst mechanics of the whole game.

Emirikol said:

Talent Socketing: Maybe new to RPGs (even then, not sure), but certainly has been done in things like board games before (it is the single mnost board gamey aspect of the whole system to me).

Trait Matching: It is basically the same as the old WFRP career entries and exits, but with a little more variety and flexibility.

Fatigue and Stress: Well, Yepesnopes has said it has been done before. I personally haven't seen a system like it before. Yes, there have been non-lethal damage mechanics, fatigue mechanics and other things, but using these essentially as a player resource? Not saying it is unique, or original, but it certainly is more unusual.

Fatigue appears already in games as old as Rune Quest and Ars Magica back in the eighties, and as for stress, you can find it for example in the FATE game system, probably gurps also, I cannot recall it now.

Although I say these are not new, I think on the other hand that the way fatigue and stress are implemented in game mechanics is brilliant.

Indeed, me and my group of players find the main mechanics of the game (such as oppossed checks, recharge tokens…) rather poor, and it is the dice and the submechanics of the game such as disease, critical wounds, insanities, corruption… the ones that keep us playing this game (appart from the setting of course). I find the implementation of the submechanics gorgeously done, very very very nice.

Cheers,

Yepes

Most of the ideas used in WFRP 3e appears in some other games, here we just get all them in one place.

Best and innovative are the dice, also the disease mechanic is good. In the new WFRP this couls be made by making types of Talents so that the Disease would block one type of Talents. Like I said it would be not that hard to make from that we have a new better version of WFRP. Yes, the mechanics would need to be slightly different but it would work. Maybe even it could use the same dice as WFRP 3e is using.

So if FFG would base the new edition of WFRP on the 3rd one, reprint some stuff with small changes then it would not take that much time to make a new WFRP. Maybe even we would see it this year or the annoucement of it. Everything is possible!

I don't think that there could not more then one RPG game comming this year. For example FFG work in the same time on Only War and SW Edge of the Empire. So that's not a problem to announce a new WFRP or to work on it becouse there are more then one design team responsible for RPGs.

Cheers

Yepesnopes said:

I wouldn't say opposed checks are one of the main mechanics, but I would agree that they are one of the less well realised parts of the system. I personally don't mind the recharge mechanics, but the opposed mechanics don't work very well, and they seem to have realised that for the Star Wars RPG and revamped them slightly.