borithan said:

I am with EotE now and I am happy that indeed they cleaned /improved this sort of things.

I am hoping to play it soon.

How do they do opposed checks in EotE?

jh

Emirikol said:

The bad dice mirror the good dice in function (though they aren't mirrored in symbol distribution).

If you would roll 4 dice and upgrade 1 to take an action with a skill, when that skill opposes someone the opponent rolls 4 bad dice and upgrades 1.

Is there any reason we couldn't just do this for WFRP?

..and, is this system perfect/better than other systems out there?

jh

Emirikol said:

The dice in SW are more symmetric than in WFRP.

The Ability dice line up with the Challenge dice, and the Proficiency dice line up with the Challenge dice, so that you can build a "negative" dice pool to roll against.

In WFRP, the dice are too asymmetric to do this. There is no negative equivalent of Ability dice or Expertise dice, let alone the Reckless and Conservative.

The only things we have that are symmetric are the fortune/misfortune dice.

Our group played a session last weekend and we really enjoyed it. I've run this edition of WFRP for a while (so I know where it shines and sinks), and I think the new system is a lot cleaner and was much easier to manage. That was only one session, mind you, but I think its a definite improvement.

It's funny to hear that, as the playtester report for WFRP was "accidentally" released that there was an "orange" die at one point that was the symmetry of the Yellow die.

The playtesters dumped it/ditched it as they didn't like something about it. I believe I recall that the playtesters felt that the game was "too easy to predict" the probabilities. I guess we'll see if the simplified version of EotE holds up to time, or if it is in the same situation 2 years from now as we are talking about here

jh

My opposed check Houserule give 50%,more or less, to each character, whatever are their statistics. The original wfrp rule is obviously mathematically broken.

Oppose to the active character a number of difficulty dice equal to the opponent's characteristic MINUS 2. Add a misfortune dice per rank of skill training.

Simple. Elegant. Respectful of the game spirit. Balanced.

Try it on the statistic online app

Like Doc said the EotE is a little clearer and easy. I also had funn when I had a chance to play it. So I really would like to see a WFRP edition silimar to EotE. I think that it would not take that much time for FFG to use all the good and best elements of WFRP and to reprint it in EotE form. They could base the new WFRP on alll that they created for the 3rd edition and use it with some changes in WFRP 3.5/4e. I my opinion this would not take too much time - from 3 to 8 months. If they arer already working on it then the time of changes will come soon. Keep my fingers crossed for that! FFG give us a better WFRP!

I don't say that WFRP 3e is bad, it the better then previous WFRP edition, but not the best there could be. Every edition of WFRP had something good in it but FFG should try to make the game better.

And I recommend that everyone who has not yet tried SW EotE to give it a try. You will not regret, it's always fun to try a new game and this one is good.

So FFG should make a new better edition of WFRP for sure! And almost sure they will but the only question is when will we know about it.

Cheers

willmanx said:

Modify the opposed checks in wfrp 3 to obtain a 50% chance of success is not difficult. What you propose is an option, dividing the characteristic by two is another. The problem is again that by doing so you are changing other things of the game that depend on that. For example, with your house rules the added value of rising a characteristic is less appealing compared to adding fortune dice. Rising a characteristics is expensive, but it is very rewarding because difficulty of opposed checks is obtained by comparing characteristics. If on the other hand the difficulty of the test does not depend on the characterisitc comparision but only on the passive characteristic, then its is cheaper and better to add fortune dice since 70% of the time PCs are the active part.

Another example is action cards resolution. You have action cards like Backstab which targets the Target Observation (Int), since melee action cards target mostly Target Defence, which is always an Easy 1d check, by changing the opposed checks rules you are making cards like Backstab a worse action card as compared to other melee cards that target Defence. With this house rule, someone with Ag 4 will not feel any difference indeed, but someone with Ag 5 should be quite pissed, since his action card Backstab is more difficult to achieve than most melee action cards, and certainly the difficulty of the card is not reflected in its efficiency. One the other hand, someone with Ag 3 will be very happy, since backstabing a targets has come easier for him.

I am not saying is a bad house rule, it is more reasonable from the probabilistic point of view, and if it works for you is fine. My point is that it is tied to other components of the mechanics of the game, and you alter also these things which breaks the delicate equilibrium of the game. Just a reflection.

Cheers,

Yepes

Emirikol said:

In my opinion, it is a pity they did so.

And regarding the play testers who said probabilities were "too easy to predict" by including yet one more dice!… they must have been like Rain Man at least!

Emirikol said:

I guess we'll see if the simplified version of EotE holds up to time, or if it is in the same situation 2 years from now as we are talking about here

jh

What do you mean? Is there a plan for an advanced version of EotE? I haven't seen it anounced, neither people in the forums talk about it.

Cheers,

Yepes

willmanx said:

Good one Willmanx. I think that's a great solution. The electronic dice roller that puts out the actual numerical success rates is pretty clear this is a good idea.

I never felt like I needed a perfect randomization table and rule for every effect, but having simple fixes like this and adopting ideas from EotE are a great way to refine a few things in the game without having to put out a 4th edition

jh

Let's face it it's not only a problem of rules that need to be better but also of how the game sales. And as far as I know it's not saleing that good - the Christmas sale was a proof of that, when even FFG saled WFRP for half of the prices, many shops that I know are doing the same even until this day.

The game really needs a breath of fresh air, a change of rules and especialy a new edition so that it could rival with other fantasy RPG systems that are comming or are on the market. So a new edition would bring more money for the publisher so that he can support more his system.

So the way I see it is that FFG should do a WFRP 3.5 edition that would upgrade all rules and make many mechanical changes or a completly new edition. And all this should be published in book format with optional cardas and not the other way.

Cheers

I don't think a new edition woudl increase sales any more than 3.0. If's not like yopu can make it any prettier. YOu're still going to have a dice issue.

You can't beat the $25 players guide entry point with a new edition. It still doesn't get any easier.

Warhammer roleplay it self is simply a niche market for those of us who want to play in it's owrld, regardless of the edition. We are dependent on it's content of fluff, not by it's game system.

1st edition and 2nd edition were systems without perfection, especially in terms of character "crunch" which seems to be the modern evolution of the gaming, especially with teh advent of multi-million-player games. Although, that and piracy were an issue, FFGs business mindset was the primary driving force (imo) for the new edition. They estimated that they could make money if they priced it super high and made it really pretty (regardless of rules and playtesting). People didn't stay away b/c it wasn't pretty enough or the rules weren't perfect enough. They stayed away b/c of the price reality and b/c 2e players seemed perfectly happy with their system.

Anyways, I still believe that any change in system would be secondary to additional background material (say, an elves product).

jh

I'm currently sitting as a player in a Pathfinder game and I've got a player next to me who wants to play a different fantasy system. All he does i sbitch about the pathfinder rules and badmouth any system that has "cards."

So, being a little testy about this sort of thing lately, I quizzed him on what would be required. Well, evidently each character gets a booklet of rules and has to look up shitloads of spells if they play a spellcaster.

I had to laugh.

Anyways, what does EotE have for basic action "sheets?" What does a jedi have to look up for his powers? Do characters have special powers?

EotE also has 7 different types of dice:

Basic actions are on sheets adjacent to the character sheet (on the image), just like our fan-created basic actions sheets.

What about advanced special abilities?

jh

Emirikol said:

Yespesnopes,you said exactly wahat I was saying a cuople post earlier - people don't use now imagination, they need card so the game must say to them what they can do. When I started palying RPGs it all was about imagination. You could do any thing what You wanted in games and did not have to look throu cards to know if you can. You said that You want to jump over the balustrade to falll with your swod on the necks of orks standing under. The GM said how diffucule tghis will be and you rolled, nothing more nothing less. I'm friend asked me what is soo good in EothE that You whant to play it more so I said - there is the freedom of what you do and it has no borders (cards make borders for imagination).

That's why I would like to see a new WFRP that would come back to waht I saw in WFRP 1e. The freedom of choice, the freedom of imagination and the fluff. I would like to see a comeback of all creatures and some profesions from 1e.

Cheers

Yepesnopes said:

Agreed. Heck, even WotC is acknowledging that most people don't want a million Kewl Powerz to choose from in RPGs anymore. The default version of D&D Next will be a return to 1980's/90's era design philosophy, without all the option-bloat that D&D 3.0/3.5 introduced, which basically nichified D&D to a game of option fetishism. People who want Kewl Powerz can play MMOs and twink out their characters with a lot less bookkeeping; tabletop RPGs must offer a different experience in order to grab peoples' attention nowadays IMO.

That's what I like about the adaptability of the current rules. We had one player who was terribly dyslexic who simply used Melee strike instead of all of the other things. His character did just fine (until he met with a sticky, bloody, end at the hands of a sub-human Fimir daemon in The Dying of the Light

Nothing about this game breaks if you remove or add components to it. There's no reason why a person couldn't play this game without stance, WFRP2e-style-talents, and advanced actions. Spells on the otherhand are as complicated as they were in previous editions and aren't for an amateur or lazy-player

..but, that's the beauty..you have that option

As to other systems, yes, I think it's imperative that people walk out of the fantasy fog and play some games like FIASCO, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Mouse guard.

I started my days on Call of Cthulhu, Chill, and "stuff" as I'm an avid convention goer and don't really go to play the same old stuff. CoC in reality though requires an immense amount of GM work and GMs aren't expected to last long with those. The longest CoC campaign I ever played, was about 15 months (several characters). It takes a special kind of system balance to avoid GM burn-out as well.

jh

Also, I still don't know about this:

In star wars, do you only get basic actions or do you have to look something up in the book?

What is that suff on the sides of the character sheet above in the back? Is that a reference of some kind?

I'm not asking b/c I'm going to ever play the game, but I'd like to see if I can use some of that for design principles for my WFRP house rulebook.

jh

Emirikol said:

In that reagard, EotE is a clasical rpg. You have a description for 5 basic actions and manoeuvres and that is it, melee attack, ranged attack, move, aim… There are no special actions like in Warhammer 3 or D&D X. Nevertheless, manoeuvres are mostly the same as in Warhammer 3.

Then you have some talents that grant you bonuses or special actions, nothing too special. Similarly to, for example warhammer 2, all you have to do is write it down on your character sheet.

Finally you have some force powers that you have to write down, like spells in any other game.

Cheers,

Yepes

P.S: I will tell you more once I have finished the whole book

In EotE the best thing is that classic aproach, that what I miss.

Anyone like to hear how WFRP 3.5 or 4e could like to? Here’s a couple of my ideas for the game:

• It should be published in book format (similar to the one we see in W40K RPGs or the new SW RPG like EotE) with optional, and only optional cards. So the main set would be the core rulebook with dice and if someone would like to, then he could buy an expansion with cards (those would not be required to play).
• The rulebook would have all rules, some careers, a list of Talents and Abilities, Spells and Blessings, a small Bestiary, a full description of the Empire and main cities, and of course a introductory adventure . All on 450 pages – that would be something.
• The new WFRP should have a Beginners Game so that everyone could try it before buying the core rulebook
• the dice mechanic should be a mix of WFRP 3e and EotE so with delay and exertion symbols on it
• Talents should stay Talents but without sockets, they should stay with types ike Tactic, Reputation Focus and so on so that every career would have access to only some types of them
• Actions would be made Abilities in tow types passive and active, maybe even some only for some races or careers so with restrictions
• active Abilities would work all the time similar to specialization from WFRP 3e
• passive Abilities would be triggered by some cost of effect, for example a Double Strike Ability would cost a character to suffer 1 fatigue or to use a Riposte Ability You must been a target of a Melee Attack that just missed You and suffer 1 fatigue
• for a skill check you would use the all proper passive Abilities to enhance it and only one active ability
• there would be a longer skill list with ranks for each skill, depending on the rank you could enhance a skill check by proper dice, each skill check would be based on 1 of 6 known from WFRP characteristics
• monsters would also have some passive and active abilities
• in future we could have expansions with more magic rules, more blessing or maybe specific for some provinces of the Empire and other nations of the Old World

Most of the stuff could be reprinted from 3e with some changes.

The best thing in book format with optional cards would also let people customiuse the game they what. The classic aproach to RPG plus optional cards - that how I would like the game to be!