DailyRich said:

Which is exactly what everyone you've been arguing with is saying. You apply all the rules that involve the "engaged objective". You keep making some arbitary distinction between what "engaged objective" effects can effect it (unit blast damage) and what ones can not (unopposed, ToO, etc) but there is no reason for you to make that distinction. There is no inconsistency in saying that all effects that specify the "engaged objective" work, while it is still not an actual objective, as there is a whole mess of other effects that would till be prohibited by that statement in the cards text. There is no card text that supports your abitary distinction between one "enaged objective" effect and others.

If we want to say that for the purpose of units striking the Trench Run makes the DS Dial the "engaged objective", which everyone agrees it must for the card to work, then where are you getting that every other "engaged objective" effect doesn't work as well? Not making such an arbitary distinction between effects is further supported by the playtester clarification that we've gotten on BGG that yes you are supposed to treat the DS Dial as the "engaged objective" for every rule/card/ability that mentions the "engaged objective", while still not making it an objective for effects that only specify or target an objective.

Tenrousei said:

I am going to go with this:

Trench Runs; Allows you to ENGAGE (NOT TARGET) the DS Dial as if it where an OBJV

Rebel Assualt; specifically calls out (TARGETS) a(n) OBJV - Thus it can not work as the DS Dial is NOT an Targetable Objective

Target of Opp; deal damage to the CURRENT ENGAGE OBJV (which is the DS Dial) - Thus is does deal damage

There you have it.. It is a matter of word abuse.. Any questions?

I appreciate the spirited debate here, but I would caution for anyone to not get too bent out of shape toward most arguments presented here or to present any argument too authoratatively. The dilemma we're facing is that we're all having to base our opinions to a great extent on what we believe is the designers' intent of the card.

Trench Run states "you may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective." The follow-up question is: what exactly does that entail? Obviously, the designers didn't intend for that to mean you simply engage it but then congratulations to you for engaging the DS, and nothing else happens. I believe they meant that you may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective, and resolve all engagements against the DS dial as though it were a dark side objective .

Then we get to the "(it is not an objective )" clause. That part clearly and directly prohibits any effect which would target an objective for damage, enhancement, etc. No room for argument there. Deal X damage to a target enemy objective would be explicitly disallowed against the DS dial.

So what then of Target of Opportunity (or future similar effects)? "…deal 1 damage to the engaged objective." Does that affect a DS dial enhanced by trench run?

Pro argument: Yes, you are treating the the DS dial as an engaged objective for the purposes of an engagement, so any effects that would refer to an engaged objective DO affect the DS during the resolution of any engagement against it.

Con argument: No. The DS dial is not an objective. There is no engaged objective when you engage the DS dial. There is only an engaged Death Star dial.

I find the latter argument rather specious, but that is only because I think the correct interpretation of Trench Run requires one to FULLY resolve engagements against the DS dial , and I believe that means treating the DS dial as an engaged objective throughout the resolution of that entire process. Allowing one part of the engagement process (applying blast icon damage) to treat the DS dial as an engaged objective but disallowing other [inherent engagement resolution] effects (unopposed bonus and effects secondary to fate cards) during that same engagement to treat the DS dial similarly seems arbitrary, the fact that we're arguing designers' intent notwithstanding.

You can engage it as if it were an objective, but it isn't an objective. So, Target of Opportunity does not work on it.

divinityofnumber said:

But you still have to treat it as an engaged objective for the purpose of resolving an engagement against it. Otherwise, the blast icon damage and unopposed bonus damage would also be ineffective against it. Part of resolving the engagement requires an edge battle, and fate cards are inherently a part of that process. I'm not sure how you would be able to determine that the DS dial is considered an engaged objective for the purpose of dealing with some parts of the engagement resolution, but not others.

I understand that the DS dial is not an objective , but Target of Opportunity is a fate card that does not target an objective but instead deals one damage to the engaged objective , which the DS dial happens to be equivalent to for the duration of the resolution of an engagement against it.

*edit - one typo

ScottieATF said:

The part where Trench Run says "it is not an objective." It can be damaged LIKE an engaged objective, but it is still NOT an objective.

DailyRich said:

But the only reason it would be damaged like an engaged objective is that it has to be treated as such in order to fully resolve any engagement against it. Trench Run doesn't say you may declare attackers against the DS dial and focus units to strike the DS dial as though it were a dark side objective. That would be limiting the engagement far beyond what the card states and without a strong evidentiary basis from the rules or even the card in question. Trench Run says "you may engage the DS dial as though it were a dark side objective" without adding additional restrictions to the processes that go along with engagement. "It is not an objective" is a declaration letting you know that the label " objective " still does not apply to the DS dial, even though you are able to engage it and resolve engagements against it.

Rebel Assault requires you to target an objective to deal 2 damage to it. Obviously, the statement on Trench Run precludes the DS dial from being targeted by *edit* Rebel Assault, even if one were to try to play it during a player action phase that coincided with the resolution of an engagement. Target of Opportunity and Hit and Run, however, resolve as effects of the resolution of an unrestricted engagement against a DS dial being treated as an engaged objective . They require no targeted objective , which is good, because as you pointed out, the DS dial is not an objective. It doesn't have to be for those cards to affect it, but it does have to be treated as an engaged objective for the purposes of resolving an engagement. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to deal damage from focusing units with blast icons to the DS dial either. All they're doing is similarly treating the DS dial…as though it were an engaged objective .

Surge1000 said:

I couldn't agree with you more, but no matter how sussinctly you put it, or how much logic and deduction you throw at this problem, there are some players who will be unconvinced until FFG comes along and says it for us. I wish I could bet money on this outcome, I could use an extra 50 bucks for when they start releasing expansion packs.

The card needs errata or a FAQ entry. Personally, I'm inclined towards simply rewording it to say "Treat the Death Star Dial as an objective. It cannot be targeted." This allows you to deal damage to it with blast icons, re-engage it with Wookiee Navigator, deal unopposed/Target of Opportunity damage, etc. but not use Rebel Assault.

dbmeboy said:

I can't stress this and the post below it enough. You are putting card text on the Trench Run that just isn't there. Your distinction between identically worded effects/rules is just arbitary and unsupported. There is absolutely no reason to infer that one effect works while an effect with the same wording does not, when not a card effect makes that distinction.

And again as I said before, treating the Death Star Dial as the "engaged objective" for all effects that specify the "engaged objective" does not conflict with the second part of the Trench Run specifying it does not turn into an objective, as there are still other effects that are affected by that part of the card.

You've drawn a random line in the sand with no backing for it. You keep saying that the Trench Run lets you damage the objective as if it were the "engaged objective" and yet you throw out every effect that damages the "engaged objective" but one, despite nothing telling you to do that. It just does not make sense.

It's not supported by the card text, the rules, logic, or clarification we've gotten from a playtesters.

Once again.. You guys need to focus on the words. There is a difference between Targeting and Engaging. It allows it to be engaged, thus once it is engaged, abilities that refer to engaging apply. Blast damage from units deal damage to the current engaged objective, thus Fates that deal damage to the current engaged objective work. Targeting is not engaging, so it does not apply here.

rgeer3 said:

I tend to agree with this interpretation. Target of Opportunity and the unopposed bonus work. Rebel Assault and the damage from the balance of the force do not work.

It can be engaged as if it were an objective, but it is not an objective. Therefore, any cards saying "do X to engaged objective" (thich the DS dial is not) do not work. You can engage the dial with units, and they can use their blast icons to damage the dial, that is it.

There are some semantic gymnastics that one can play, given some of the wording in the core rule book…but, we all know what the card means…you can use your units' blast icons to damage it. You can't use events and fate cards, etc. You are going into the deathstar with units themselves, to try to take it out.

divinityofnumber said:

So why then do you contend that units with blast icons on them can damage the DS dial? Engaging an objective DOES NOT damage the objective . Focusing a unit with blast icons to strike deals damage to an engaged objective . Your argument against Target of Opportunity and unopposed bonus would also preclude focusing to strike from dealing damage to the DS dial. Again, you're placing unnecessary restrictions on the engagement allowed by Trench Run.

dbmeboy said:

This is my interpretation of the rules as well. I view Edge cards such as Target of Opportunity and the unopposed bonus as modifiers to the fight at this stage in the game. Thus, it makes sense for for modifiers to be able to add or subtract from the damage done to the Death Star dial. However, cards such as Rebel Assault and the Light Side balance of the force damage are not modifiers, they are simply doing damage to an objective -- which the Death Star dial is not.

This is how I currently play, and the ruling that I hand down to all the players in my area (Although I do note that we are awaiting an official ruling when doing so). While I can see how others could argue otherwise, this is my personal ruling on the issue for now. And until we get an official ruling on this (and tournament rules), that is all that any of use can do -- a personal ruling using our best interpretation of the rules and card effects.

Surge1000 said:

Because Trench Run allows you to engage it like an objective. Which means you go through the entire engagement process with it. But at no point does that make it an objective, and if it can't be an objective, it can't be an engaged objective. "Like" doesn't mean "is."

I don't know why everyone is hung up on "blast icons only do damage to engaged objectives!" when the card clearly states you engage the dial like an objective. That means blast icons can damage it. But just because blast icons also damage engaged objectives doesn't mean EVERYTHING they damage is an engaged objective. The card sets up an exception.

But really, none of this is life and death. We'll get our ruling, and play it the way they say to play it, and life will go on. Let's not get so worked up over this.

DailyRich said:

DailyRich said:

You're still adding exceptions to the process of an engagement that simply don't exist. What do blast icons represent? They represent damage to the engaged objective when a player is attacking. Those are the rules. We agree on that, yes? For some reason, you're separating those "deals damage to an engaged objective" abilities from all other ways that damage is dealt to an engaged objective during the process of resolving an engagement.

Think of it this way. A BLAST ICON on a card simply represents a rule . The rule it represents is: if attacking, focus to strike, dealing 1 damage to the engaged objective . So what you're saying is, a blast icon on a unit means deal damage to the DS dial when Trench Run is in effect. But if they actually just printed the rules for the blast icon on the card, you wouldn't be able to deal damage to the DS dial because the word objective would appear in that text. See how that just wouldn't make sense? You created an exception where none exists.

The card sets up no exceptions to the way an engagement is resolved (once you accept that the DS dial can be engaged). It creates a rule that the DS dial is not an objective. That doesn't change the way engagements are resolved. Resolving Target of Opportunity and other fate cards that do not target an objective are no more prevented by that clause than is resolving blast icons.

Let's all just agree to disagree. This is getting somewhat carried away. Everyone email FFG rules questions about Trench Run multiple times and maybe we can light a fire on getting that FAQ.

DailyRich said:

I agree, and if you sensed any animus on my behalf, please understand it was not intended. I'm not worked up at all, and I hope you aren't either.

Toqtamish said:

This is one of several rules questions I've submitted for the game. I haven't even gotten back any automated "we've received your question" emails, much less actually responses yet. We'll have to keep our fingers crossed.

I can see that everyone's opinion here seems valid. In all of my playing of the game recently though, I have yet to actually have any rules disagreements over Trunch Run.

The REAL question here is why are you actually putting Trench Run into play? Edge that card away…

JustinMcBride said:

This man speaks wisdom.

JustinMcBride said:

Forget edge battles - this is the first card I ditch every turn…