DailyRich said:

I'm not saying that this card makes the Death Star an objective. The card says you can engage it like it was an objective. We all agree on that point. Please follow along. I won't reiterate my argument again. I've reworded it several times in order to make it more clear.

What I find crazy about this whole discussion is it was asked over on BGG forums and Patrick Brennan, while not a FFG employee but was a playtester for the game, said things like Hit and Run and Wookie Navigator do work in conjunction with Trench Run. Take that for what it's worth.

The only thing I have to say is with tournaments getting ready to fire up, this mythical FAQ needs to show up soon.

I think that both fate card effects and unopposed bonus apply to the Death star dial when enhanced by the Trench Run card. The card specifies:
" You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective (it is not an objective)".

Everyone seems to agree that the card allows the dial to be declared as an objective during the conflict phase, so far so good.

This then means that an engagement can be started with the Dial as the engaged objective. An engagement consist of 6 engagements steps:
1. Declare Objective
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Defenders
4. Fight Edge Battle
5. Resolve Strikes
6. Reward Unopposed

All of these steps are considered to be part of the engagement. For the blast damage icon to apply (which everyone seems to agree on) the dial needs to be considered as an "engaged objective" during the Resolve strikes step. But there is nothing on the Trench Run card that implies that the it is only blast damage that can be given to the enhanced dial, or that it is only an engaged objective for purposes of the Declaring Objective and Resolve Strikes steps. To me the most natural interpretation is that the dial is treated as an engaged objective during the entire engagement, therefore both edge cards and unopposed should apply.

Also, if my interpretation is correct, the dial is also vulnerable to event cards that may target an "engaged objective" during the engagement. But I don't think any such cards exist.

But, yes, it needs to be clarified in the FAQ, I hope it comes out soon.

DailyRich said:

And where on the card does it say that units can deal blast damage to it? Oh, yeah nowhere. It only says it can be engaged as an objective while still not becoming an objective. It does not say anything about how it can be damaged at all anywhere on the card.

For the card to work at all it must be treated as the "engaged objective" because that is the only way units can strike it for damage as that is how the rules specifically spell out the blast icons work. They deal damage to the "engaged objective". If the Trench Run does not become the "engaged objective" then it can not be struck for blast damage. The rules on striking and the icons are extraordinarily clear on that. So if the Trench Run has to be treated as the "engaged objective" for the purpose of functioning at all, there is no reason it is not the "engaged objective" in all cases that specify the "engaged objective".

You position is in no way valid with the rules as we have them. The Trench Run card does not specify how it is damaged, only that it can be engaged and can take damage. Units strike and deal damage to the "engaged objective" with any blast icons they have, that is clearly stated in the rules. For the Trench Run to work at all, it therefore must be treated as the "engaged objective" or else units could not damage it when striking. If it is the "engaged objective" for that one instance, there is no reason to say it isn't for the undefended bonus, etc.

You are inventing hoops that are not there.

Just so it is abundantly clear because you continue to ignore it. The Trench Run card does not state that units can strike it and deal damage equal to thier blast icon. That text is nowhere on the card as you continue to insist. The card says it may be engaged, there is nothing on it about altering the rules on striking or icons. Not a word.

ScottieATF said:

As someone who is starting to come around to the pro-Target of Opportunity camp, the need for such a pointed, condescending response is elusive.

ScottieATF said:

The card says right on it, when it takes 10 damage LS wins. How then can you argue that it is not capable of taking damage ? You cannot seriously believe that is correct.

No-one is saying that the dial can't take damage. The question is how it can take damage. If it can take damage from units with blast damage icons that only (according to the rules) damages "the engaged objective" then it should also be an "engaged objective" for the purposes of other effects (fate cards and unopposed bonus) during the engagement.

The card does not specify that only blast damage can be dealt to the dial, that is the point ScottieATF is trying to make.

But it's quite clear that we disagree, we'll just have to wait for the FAQ.

If it is engaged like an objective then like an objective it takes blast damage while engaged. That part is pretty obvious, the other card effects that target objectives or engaged objectives we will just have to agree to disagree. Anyway I am done with these threads now until the FAQ comes out as nothing is getting resolved in any of the dozens of them.

I recommend everyone email FFG rules questions to get them to get the FAQ out sooner rather than later.

I asked FFG via the rules link last week. If I ever get an answer I will post it.

houjix1138 said:

If anyone is curious, here is the link to that discussion (or at least one discussion on Trench Run with Patrick Brennan).

Now when a man and a woman love each other, or are very attracted to each other, or are bored…

And to chime in on the actual discussion, why are people concerned about the word card? Did I miss something? C-T-L-CG 101 pretty much states that once a card hits the table it is no longer a card, but becomes a creature,unit,enchantment,land,objective,resource,etc… so I don't get this part of the argument

Also, if the dial can be attacked like an objective, anything which deals with attacking an objective should be fair game. Run a few rounds like this and see if it even starts to border on being overpowered. I'm confident that it won't be.

Toqtamish said:

Alright since you clearly did not read my post I'm going to be as clear as possible. Nowhere did I argue that the dial can not take damage. I'd ask the small courtesy of reading a post before responding to it.

The Trench Run does not specify how it is damaged, only that it can be damaged and engaged. There is no text on the Trench Run that alters the rules for striking or icons, or the rules of engagement beyond the first step. We all agree that for the card to work you need to be able to deal damage to it correct? For a unit to deal damage to it when striking, then it must be considered the "engaged objective". Why? Because thats what the striking and icon rules say units deal damage to with thier blast icons. As stated above the Trench Run has no text to alter that rule so the Golden Rule doesn't apply. So if it is the "engaged objective" for that purpose, and the Trench Run has made no stipulation on how it is damaged, then there is no logical reason to not treat the Trench Run as the "engaged objective" for the length of the engagment. If it is not the "engaged objective" then units can't strike it, because again the Trench Run does not change the striking or icon rules, which would make the card non-functioning.

Let me pose this question: Objective cards have the word "Objective" on them. It's a trait. If a card that says, "Target Force User" or "Target Character" has to be applied to a unit with the "Force User" or "Character" trait, doesn't it make sense that "Target Objective" or "Engaged Objective" has to apply to a card with the "Objective" trait? And since Trench Run doesn't add that trait to the dial, those cards can't affect it?

ScottieATF said:

If it's "like an objective," it makes sense that you damage it "like an engaged objective."

It's possible for the dial to take on aspects of an objective without actually becoming an objective.

The card says you engage it. You can't engage without doing damage. Just because it's not an "engaged objective" doesn't change that.

ScottieATF said:

Yes I read your post. But you ass ume I did not. This is the second time in this thread you have been condescending to someone that has a different opinion on this "debate" than yourself. If you cannot discuss your argument in a polite manner then why should anyone listen to you. I for one will not be.

Daily Rich, you hit it right on the nail with both of your responses.

DailyRich said:

This is not actually a true statement.

If we can step back for a moment and not attack one another please? It's a freaking card game. An awesome card game, but a card game.

Now. It is obvious that the intent of the card is that the Death Star Dial can be engaged and take damage from the engagement as if it were an objective card. It is obvious that the intent of the card is that the Death Star Dial cannot be the target of effects that target an objective, as it is not an objective. It is questionable if the intent of the card is to have effects that refer to the "engaged objective" apply to the Death Star Dial or not. These are the premises that no one is arguing.

The question is similar to effects like Fleet Command Center and Fleeing the Empire. The intent of those cards was obviously that the end of your refresh step, you could put a shield on a target unit/objective. However, as the rules are currently written, those cards have ultimately no effect despite the intent of the effect being clear.

The argument being set forth is the same. If, rules as written, the Death Star Dial is unaffected by effects such as Target of Opportunity, then it stands to reason that, rules as written, the Death Star Dial is also unaffected by a unit's blast damage icons. The intent of Trench Run is irrelevant to this argument, in the same way the intent of Fleet Command Center is irrelevant. As the rules stand, if the text "it is not an objective" prevents it from being damaged by the effect of Target of Opportunity, the logical conclusion is that the same text prevents it from being damaged by the blast damage icons of a unit during an engagement.

Yes, this conclusion is clearly against the intent of the card. But if Target of Opportunity cannot affect the Death Star Dial because it refers to the "engaged objective" in its rules text, it follows that blast damage icons, which also refer to the "engaged objective" in the rules do not afffect the Death Star Dial either. That is the argument being made.

DailyRich said:

So if it makes sense that you'd damage it like an engaged objective, then it makes sense that all rules/cards/abilities that damage the engaged objective also apply. What does not make sense is saying that one instance works and that other do not. The Trench Run card doesn't make that stipulation.

Also it is just completely incorrect to say you can't engage without doing damage. I can think of many scenarios off the top of my head where you'd engage and deal no damage, or that you only way of dealing damage is through everything but striking with your units.

Toqtamish said:

I apoligieze if I seem impolite, however you completely missed my clearly stated arguement and turned it into something I did not say. So either you did that intentionally or you skimmed over my post to the statement you qouted and took it out of context ignoring the bulk of the post it was contained it. So I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you didn't read my post instead of accusing you of purposefully twisting my arguments and putting words in my mouth.

And DailyRich did hit one nail on the head. If it make sense to damage the Trench Run as if it were the engaged objective (as I said that the only way that card actually works) then you damage it like its the engaged objective, in every instance, not just striking.

dbmeboy said:

I meant you can't engage without focusing to strike, which can do damage.

D.Knight Sevus said:

We're arguing that it's implicit in the wording of the card that that blast damage DOES damage the Death Star, even if it's not an "engaged objective." The important part is "engaged." Currently, by the rules, the only thing that can be engaged are objectives. Trech Run expands that to allow you to engage the Death Star, but makes very clear that this in no way makes it an objective. It just means you apply all rules regarding engaging objectives to it, up to but not including actually making it an objective.

DailyRich said:

DailyRich said:

But doesn't have to. You can very easily engage with no capacity to deal damage except through the undefended bonus or Target of Oppurtunity.

All others are argueing is that you must apply rules consistantly. If it's the engaged objective for units striking, then it is the engaged objective for the undefended bonus as well. As there is nothing in the card text of Trench Run making an exception in one instance but not others or altring rules on how cards strike or icons work.

You can also engage without focusing to strike, there is nothing saying you must strike in an engagement, only that if you are unexhausted in an engagement you must strike. You can easily be focused/killed mid-engagment and thus never strike with anything.

DailyRich said:

This is the clearest explanation of your point of view that I have seen yet. I can see how and why you would think that. Now I just sit back and wait for the FAQ.

It seems to me like no matter where you fall on this one, you're arbitrarily drawing a line on exactly where the "treat like an objective but not an objective" thing stops. I'm pretty sure we all agree that the card is meant to allow blast damage icons to damage the DS Dial as if it were an objective (which is indeed different than just being able to engage it), for instance. RAW on that is somewhat unclear without using the implicit argument based on the fact that Trench Run would be worthless otherwise. The Target of Opportunity or unopposed bonus are similar cases from a rules point of view at least. Both (one card and one rule) affect the "engaged objective" - just like blast damage icons. Personally, I think the intent of Trench Run was to allow blast damage icons, the unengaged bonus, and Target of Opportunity (and other cards refering to the "engaged objective") to interact with the DS Dial as if it were an objective. RAW might actually better support the "none of it works" point-of-view, but I don't plan on playing it that way. Could the line be somewhere inbetween those extremes? Of course, but neither the rules, the card, nor logic can really answer where that line is supposed to be. Hopefully the FAQ and/or a rules response comes from FFG soon.

Budgernaut said:

Whew. And with that, I'm done 'til the FAQ.