I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm just not totally sure how this new Jinteki identity card works. Can someone please explain this to me? Thank you in advance.

It is worded weird. All it says is that the runner is forbidden from running on any remote server unless he has already run on a central server that turn.

Note that it is only running on a central server. If the first ice encountered is, say, ice wall, he'll simply bounce off and then run. It does not need to be a successful run. He does waste a click making a run he would probably rather not do, though.

Thank you for your answer. This card is worded very weird. Thanks again.

The actual wording is:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Ignore this ability until the end of the turn whenever the Runner runs on a central server."

What that says to me is, first and formost, the Runner cannot run on remote servers.

However the line after that states to ignore that until the end of the turn , and a turn consists of four "clicks", that the Runner runs on a central server .

So to me it means that the Runner is free to run on any and all remote servers until AFTER THE END OF A TURN where s/he runs on a central server.

So if you set up a remote server with Bullfrog and bounced the Runner from that remote server to a central server, they are then running on a central server, thus satifying the second statement so you no longer need to ignore the first statement and now all of your remote servers are safe from being run against until the end of the game.

That would completely ridiculous. However, that's not how it works: by running one of your central servers on a later turn, the runner gets to ignore the effect again until the end of that turn.

Sorry Fyredrake, that is completely wrong. I really don't know where you got that interpretation, and managed to also get it backwards. The ability prevents the runner from going after any remote server unless they go after a central server first. If they do that, success or not, they can then target any remote server until the end of that turn. In effect, it would force a runner to do a possibly dangerous run just to go after your remote servers.

hey fyredrake, that is how i interpreted the card when i first read it too. it can easily be understood that way. the only word is whenever instead of when, which implies it can trigger repeatedly

I am baffled by how Fyredrake and Quailman can possibly interpret the card that way. "Easily" my digital avatar's shiny metal butt.

It's really simple.

I want to run on a remote. Can I? No.

So I run a central. Have I run on a central? Yes.

So now, until the end of the turn, I can ignore the ability preventing me from running on remotes.

Any other interpretation is just flat wrong; nobody plays it that way, it's never been understood that way, it's been around for the better part of a year and there's been no question about what it does.

I suspect it's a new card in some European countries and either the translation or just differences in our language structures is causing confusion.

I suspect it's a new card in some European countries and either the translation or just differences in our language structures is causing confusion.

this. it's the most common reason for these questions. not necessarily just in the EU, but yeah.

Toolbox and Fyredrake are listed as Maine and Michigan on their profiles?

Bah! That second sentence is like a Stereographic image. Took me a long while of staring at it before it made any sense. It kept trying to be read as: "Ignore this ability until X happens." "Until" kept reading as the main conjunction -- which is what the minority opinion in this thread argued for. But that made zero gameplay sense because then it limited the type of runs that could be made only when it was no longer the Runner's turn.

The important word is "whenever": Ignore this ability (until X) whenever Y happens. "Until the end of the turn" is a subordinate clause (modifying how long the ability is to be ignored for) once a certain criteria is met -- whenever the Runner runs on a central server.

Perhaps it should have been written: "The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Whenever a Runner runs on a central server, ignore this ability until the end of the turn." Or maybe, "The Runner cannot run on remote servers unless she has made a run on a central server this turn."

This is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist. As I said months ago, there is exactly zero confusion or ambiguity about how the card actually functions.

I am pleased to report that I finally understand how it can be read wrong. The post about "until" and where it fits is what nailed it. This is not the first thread on this subject and I recall last time scratching my head for a long time trying to figure out why folks were confused.

Meanwhile I shudder to think how this card got translated. For my part I think what saved me from the cliff of reading it wrong was the use of "the" and "whenever". If I was to write this card such that the incorrect interpretation was correct, I'd write it as "Ignore this ability until the end of A turn IN WHICH the runner runs on a central server". Or perhaps During Which would be more correct.

On 11/06/2013 at 0:37 AM, Fyredrake said:

The actual wording is:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Ignore this ability until the end of the turn whenever the Runner runs on a central server."

What that says to me is, first and formost, the Runner cannot run on remote servers.

However the line after that states to ignore that until the end of the turn , and a turn consists of four "clicks", that the Runner runs on a central server .

So to me it means that the Runner is free to run on any and all remote servers until AFTER THE END OF A TURN where s/he runs on a central server.

So if you set up a remote server with Bullfrog and bounced the Runner from that remote server to a central server, they are then running on a central server, thus satifying the second statement so you no longer need to ignore the first statement and now all of your remote servers are safe from being run against until the end of the game.

This is a correct reading of the card. However, it must be understood by everyone, that this is "merely" a direct, literal and logical reading of the card ability. In this sense, what was really meant by the game creators, or what is generally understood by players, or whether it would ruin the gameplay because it would be an ability too overpowered or not, is not the point here. It is a strict reading and interpretation of the card ability, nothing more and nothing less.

The first command/sentence dictates that the runner cannot make a run on any remote server. This sentence/command in itself is crystal clear. If this was all there was to it then the runner would only be able to run on non-remote servers, which in effect would mean central servers. But following the next immidiate command ("Ignore this ability [...]") now updates the first command, dictating that the (first) command is not in effect. If this was all there was too it then the runner could make as many runs as s/he wants on remote servers. But the command is immidiately given a detailed specification and a condition; "[...] until the end of the turn [...]", which states that you must continue to ignore the ability right up to the end of a turn. This turn is not any (random or arbitrary) turn, but is the turn defined by the immidiately following condition; "[...] whenever the runner runs on a central server."], since the runner can only make a run within a turn. And as quailman2101 says above, "whenever" indeed states that the runner can run on a central server mulitple times, including over multiple turns, and thereby trigger multiple times the effect that the card ability is no longer is ignored. Which in the end means that the runner can make runs on remote servers right up to the end of the turn where s/he makes a run on a central server, which in effect means that the runner cannot win the game by stealing agendas, unless special card abilities give the runner the ability to steal agendas from remote servers without making runs on these, or that agendas are scored from non-remote servers. This is of course a bad thing for the runner, which also means that it is (by a strict reading of the card) a very strong card for the corp to play.

Of course, many have pointed out that the (in all likelihood) intended meaning of the card, is that the runner has to make a run (and/or attempted run) on a central server, to/before attempting a run on a remote server. However, this is not what the card ability really commands. An ability that would reflect the intended meaning of the card could sound something like; "For every turn, the runner has to attempt at least one run on a central server before being able to attempt a run on a remote server.", or, "The runner cannot attempt a run on a remote server. This ability is ignored for the rest of the turn when the runner attempts at least one run on a central server.".

On 9/24/2017 at 10:20 PM, maven27145 said:

This is a correct reading of the card. However, it must be understood by everyone, that this is "merely" a direct, literal and logical reading of the card ability. In this sense, what was really meant by the game creators, or what is generally understood by players, or whether it would ruin the gameplay because it would be an ability too overpowered or not, is not the point here. It is a strict reading and interpretation of the card ability, nothing more and nothing less.

Emphasis mine.

The existence of one logical reading of a card does not mean there cannot also be other logical ways to do it. I agree that the line can be interpreted in multiple ways, which is why it is good that we have the rules text clarified to know that your interpretation, while logical, is also unintended and wrong.

It sounds like you are having trouble seeing the logic of the correct version. Maybe I can help:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Ignore this ability until the end of the turn whenever the Runner runs on a central server"

The first question is what "this ability" refers to. I would submit "the runner cannot run on remote servers".

If I can rearrange things a bit:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Whenever the Runner runs on a central server, ignore "The Runner cannot run on remote servers" until the end of the turn"

Hopefully this makes the correct interpretation a little more clear? Do you agree?

I don't think you can sensibly argue that "Do X whenever Y" and "Whenever Y, do X" are semantically different, so if you do agree, I hope you can better understand the logic behind the correct interpretation.

You do know this whole thing is moot right? The ID Rotates out and is no longer legal in 48 hours.

Sounds like I got in just in time!

On 9/29/2017 at 5:13 PM, MrCowbird said:

Emphasis mine.

The existence of one logical reading of a card does not mean there cannot also be other logical ways to do it. I agree that the line can be interpreted in multiple ways, which is why it is good that we have the rules text clarified to know that your interpretation, while logical, is also unintended and wrong.

It sounds like you are having trouble seeing the logic of the correct version. Maybe I can help:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Ignore this ability until the end of the turn whenever the Runner runs on a central server"

The first question is what "this ability" refers to. I would submit "the runner cannot run on remote servers".

If I can rearrange things a bit:

"The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Whenever the Runner runs on a central server, ignore "The Runner cannot run on remote servers" until the end of the turn"

Hopefully this makes the correct interpretation a little more clear? Do you agree?

I don't think you can sensibly argue that "Do X whenever Y" and "Whenever Y, do X" are semantically different, so if you do agree, I hope you can better understand the logic behind the correct interpretation.

Even if there are multiple readings/interpretations of the card doesn't mean that my initial declaration is wrong. If a given card has, say, three true interpretations, the confirming of one of those interpretations does not void the other interpretations, because interpretations don't need to be exclusive. It merely means that that interpretation is also true/fitting, like the others. An example; I have three cars, and I say "I love my car.", doesn't mean I don't love my other two cards, regardless of which one I meant.

I clearly see the logic of the intended meaning. I just mention that the objection and confusion OP had, is actually justified.

Without going into detail, I think the confusion arises from poor wording of the card. A simple rearranging of the second sentence improves it significantly, that is; " The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Whenever the Runner runs on a central server, ignore this ability until the end of the turn. ". But "[...] ignore this ability [...]" is still refering to it's own sentence, so a further improvement would be; " The Runner cannot run on remote servers. Whenever the Runner runs on a central server, ignore the first sentence/command/rule until the end of the turn.". But again, a much better single-sentence wording would be; " For every turn, the runner has to attempt at least one run on a central server before being able to attempt a run on a remote server. ".

On 9/29/2017 at 6:53 PM, MrCowbird said:

Sounds like I got in just in time!

Hahahahahaha...

The horse is very very dead. Put down the whip.