Penny and The Laughing Storm

By snowfrost, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

mdc273 said:

There is no rule saying that a killed card can not be killed, BUT there is a rule that says a Moribund card can not have it's Moribund state changed (even to the same Moribund state). This covers trying to kill a character that has already been killed as you can not try to change Moribund:Dead to Moribund:Dead. The game simply disallows it.

The moribund rule "exception" (as it is called in the FAQ) says that a card that is moribund cannot be made to leave play a second time. Notice the word "cannot." Because of the specific use of that word, two things become true: 1) the moribund card is an illegal target for any effect that would "choose" it to leave play (by any means), and 2) the moribund card is not affected by any any effect that would remove it from play, targeted or not.

So, since "kill" effects remove cards from play, a moribund card cannot be chosen as the target for a kill effect and will not be affect by any kill effect that happens to resolve.

It turns out that the moribund state of a card can be changed, so long as the effect does not try to do so by removing it from play. Replacement effects do it all the time. The event card "Retreat," for example, works by taking a "moribund:dead" card and making it "moribund:hand." It does not violate the moribund rules because because it "returns the card to your hand instead ," as opposed to "returning the card to hand."

ktom said:

It turns out that the moribund state of a card can be changed, so long as the effect does not try to do so by removing it from play. Replacement effects do it all the time. The event card "Retreat," for example, works by taking a "moribund:dead" card and making it "moribund:hand." It does not violate the moribund rules because because it "returns the card to your hand instead ," as opposed to "returning the card to hand."

I forgot to say "changed to a different moribund state". I think I included it in a later reference and forgot it here. Also, with regards to replacement effects, a card like retreat would actually prevent the card from entering the Moribund:Dead state wouldn't it? Therefore, it didn't go from Moribund:Dead to Morbund:Hand, the game tried to make it Moribund:Dead and Retreat interrupted and replaced it, then making it Moribund:Hand?

No, that's not how replacement effects work. The character (in the Retreat example) has still been killed, as replacement effects are not save/cancels. After the character is killed and becomes moribund:dead pile, you use the response to change it to moribund:hand, though you can still respond to a character dying. For an example of the difference between a replacement and a save, look at the wording on Viserys (Core) and compare it to Retreat 's text, which is quite similar, but notably different.

J_Roel said:

No, that's not how replacement effects work.
Well… it is how some replacement effects work.

mdc273 said:

IAlso, with regards to replacement effects, a card like retreat would actually prevent the card from entering the Moribund:Dead state wouldn't it? Therefore, it didn't go from Moribund:Dead to Morbund:Hand, the game tried to make it Moribund:Dead and Retreat interrupted and replaced it, then making it Moribund:Hand?

Most replacement effects are constant effects and work like you say. For example, when a character agenda dies, it never enters the "moribund:dead pile" state, only the "moribund:attach as agenda" state. (But, of course, it still counts as being killed; the effect that removes the character from play defines whether or not it was killed, not the moridund state it enters.)

However, there are triggered replacement effects - like Retreat. The play restrictions for Retreat are to play the event after the character is killed. Well, before a Response to the character being killed can be triggered, the kill effect has to resolve completely - meaning that the character entered the usual "moribund:dead" state.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered the chargendas.

Editted for uselessness. D: