Okay, so we've all had a bit of time to play around with the new book - so; how do people rate the Crimson Gaurd?

As a rank, it's obviously really powerful; guard getting an extra cheap stat upgrade in exchange for fellowship is obviously great for them. As well as bionics and let's not go into their starting gear.

However, it pretty much restricts you to no other alternate ranks as no other guard ranks are appropriate for you; and nor are many background packages.

Unless your GM is kind enough to let you take the Mechanicus Secutor alternate rank in the Inquisitor's Handbook, or indeed the Divine Light of Sollex background package…

Also the weapon skill hit is pretty nasty…

But yeah!

Good and bad points about the rank!

- Does it add to your game?

- Is it too power creep'y?

- Other generic questions.

Pretty much that, limited, but not minding the limitations due to power creep and ungodly starting weapons (free carapace, high powered guns, a freaking lathe dagger better than any normal lathe dagger)

I have the same opinion.

It is insanely powerfull though very restricted career that also makes it difficutl tto play a common tech-priest in the group. On the one hand they bear a frightening power level in combat that only a secutor alternate career can match, on the other hand they can buy skills and talents that make a tech-priest redunant in most scenarios. This way they combine exeptional fighting power with good support skills. But we are talking about something that is more or less a skitari, a soldier of the mechanicus that is not a servitor for the only reason of ye good ol soldier intuition. They are elite, yes, but they are nothing more than a tool. They loyalty belongs to their masters and their rank is always below that of a tech-priest (as long as he serves in the military branch).

And this is why they are uninterisitng to play. They are a combat monster… nice, if I want to play one then I take Deathwatch. They are a playable combat servitor with a few more grey cells that is able to use a cogitator but the ultimatly lac the feeling of roleplaying a tech-priest, they are just another brute or muscle for the dirty work. They might look interisting because of the power they offer but what is left beyond that? What do they have to define them? They are no Guardsman, no mere human that is still part of the only true defense of the imperium. A human that is able to fear, and to overcome his fear. A Guardsman lifes fromt he ethos any good warmovie is about. They are the true heroes but still have their weaknesses. The Crimson Guard does not. They are made to serve just a a lasrifle is made. You say what to fight, he does. The thing that sets them appart form a tech-priest is the fact that a tech-priest is a priest. He is not just a logic driven robot that repeats his prayers. He is still a human. They are the exemplar, the idol of the treaty of olympus where the Emperor united the Mechanicum and the Imperium. They are both, machine and human with both equal sides. In the Crimson Guard or the Skitari the Human part is reduced to a minimum for only effecicency is required of a tool. Tech-Priest still maintain their personality to some degree, they do not deny their human part, they deny the weakness of their flesh. Take a look at their universal laws. They praise emotions as they are part of the soul. Logic is just another one and thrue their weaknes as man comes their greates strenght, to understand, this is what sets them apart from machines and makes them the followers of the ommnissiah.

But of course, you can always roleplay the **** out of a character but what would you think about your laspistol when it starts to argue with you about the value of life? You dont want to discuss with your laspistol. You want it to shoot at your enemys, that is what it is made for. And the Crimson Guard, as I view them, are just an elite formation of skitarii. They are made to function, if you want to have a weapon that is capable of philosophy find a myrmidon. The Magi Militant set the target, the Crimson Guard attacks. The are still humans with a personality, but this personality has been reduced to a thing whose only purpose is to fight. Imagine a Guardsman and now subtract every unnecessary emotion, there might be fear, but only tot he degree that saves them from dangers. They can not love, they can not enjoy for they have no fear of loosing something. They are fabricated soldiers. They might have a nice background for the calixis sector, but as a PC they are pale.

I think they are awesome!

But my opinion is instantly discounted because I wrote that section of the book.


I will say that, like everything in an RPG, you get out what you put in. If you just see the Venatorii as nothing more than faceless cold near-automoton soldiers and attempt to play it that way, then that's exactly what you'll get. And they're not "fabricated soldiers".

BYE

They can still be awesome and cheesy, there isn't a cutoff point. I love parts of the book, just intergrating with normal DH would cause serious issues of power balance. In that sense, not a fan of the book. I prefferred Book of Judgement and Daemon Hunter, both by offering neat gear anyone can use, but not too much creep or at the minimum, modulated creep.

Well, its a different point of view we have here. I know that this is a Supplement for the Calixan Mechanicus and not for the AdMech per se but in my fluff interpretation the soldiers of the AdMech are made, not trained like an ordinary guardsman ist. The AdMech uses Eugenics to provide the best human case for their soldiers, even more if we talk about their elite. Personality is nothing that matters, it is something that is shaped to fit in, it is created. They are not fabricated like a Chimera is, with mechanics and so on, but every metaphore about soldiers that are machines becomes true if we talk about the AdMech. The Example with the Lasgun was propably more fitting if we talk about a servitor but a Soldier of the AdMech is still required to be a tool that has a specific purpose.

And the rule "you get out what you put in" is okay, but just as I said the universe is limiting you. You can play a nymphomanic sororitas, but how much is this still a sororitas? You can argue that my point of view is bound to some stereotypes and I might agree to that to some point but WH40k is very much about stereotypes. Of course a PC can always be the exeption from that rule, but then he is just another creepy assassin/brute/soldier or whatever with some overpowered weaponry and a skillset that is identical to any militant tech-priest. They are redunant. Their Fluff might be nice as an elite formation of the skitarii or a more "household force" if you want to call it that way. But as a PC they have nothing to offer that a Tech-Preist or Guardsman did not had beside their crazy starting gear and easy to obtain skills. I even wonder why they have Tech-Use +20, they are no Priest, they are Soldiers. They are no sanctified Priest of the Omnissiah and still are introduces to the most advanced rituals the AdMech has? This breaks a fundamental border in my immersion of the fluff and I dont expect you to understand, I just try to explain. And I do not want to say that the Guard is something bad, ist is just something I can not accept in my Idea of WH40k, or more specific in my idea of the AdMech where the Priesthood ist the ruling part that keeps his secrets even away from its supordinates. Knowledge is power and a mere tool, a Soldier, is never trusted with this kind of knowledge. (i.e. Forbidden Lore Adeptus Mechanicus) He has to know what to fight, not the reasons why.

Funnily enough a player's crimson guard in my campaign has just been sevitorised for trying to go toe to toe with a magos at trying to hack into said magos' computer network and attempted to duel an inquisitor one on one. Needless to say he got his rank 3 ass handed to him and he a paddy. That same player came in at rank 1 with a bunch of hard earned rank 4/5 characters with his snazzy things wading through hardbitten criminals merrily, mind unburdened by ammo consumption, bragging that at rank 3 he can automatically gain a 3000t jetpack cybernetic and we were disgusted. The Scum though took pride in the fact he had just a staff, stub revolver, a flak vest and a hole in his head because he spent what little stolen money he had on drugs instead of a flak helmet and flipped him the bird.

Their starting gear, traits and advance list is gimped compared to a standard guardsman. They're hardly inflexible when as a guardsman you can to double as a tech priest with their potential +20 Tech-Use (I very much agree with FieserMoep's point that this is as sensible as a bag of weasels) and with free bionics every so often. Personally I liken their starting gear to be more similar to a storm trooper from ascension apart from crimson guard armour only weighs a kilogram more than a flak vest.

Crimson Guard read as an elite fighting force above their fellow skitarii and are intensively equipped and trained so, just like a stormtrooper is to a standard guardsman. At the very least then they should have been made similar to the suffering marshal or bloodsworn, An alternate rank at 5+ with serious hoops to jump through to get. This is how I am treating it in my campaign subsequently after experience of GMing a player as a rank 1 one of these.

To me it was the most disappointing thing to read in the lathe worlds book. Mainly because there wasnt a brilliantly simple, cute little all encompassingly named ' Skitarii' alternate rank 1, with advances (such as primitive weapon proficiencies) and maybe some starting talents/traits swapped out for a SMALL AMOUNT of mechanicus/tech flavoured stuff and maybe a bionic arm. Within the fluff just a nice little bit about how within the ' Skitarii' basic infantry are call 'Hyspasists' and heavy weapons operatives are called 'Sagitarii' etc and a lovely little sidebar that tells us that if you're a rank 6 'lieutenant' you'd instead be called 'Tribune' or something etc. It would have been sthuper amazing. It would be guardsman with a hint of AdMech just like how the penal legionnaire a guardsman with a hint of criminal. Nontheless safely in the realm of guardsman role.

Instead, I saw this ill conceived, cheese slicked, faceless, red robot hybrid attempt that made all his fellow rank 1 tech priests weep sacred machine oil of sadness and jealousy and guardsmen weep normal human tears because they are just guardsmen.

A sororitas starts with power armor… and the militant psyker (templar calix) in IH is a BEAST with his force sword…

so the GM can not just allow players to pick and choose everything there is in the books. You have to set a frame work so it fits with your campaign.

A skiitarios as much as a crimson guard are implanted men that are trained and bred to fight; they are not just better than servitors; they are nothing like servitors. They are soliders of the mechanicum, the same soliders that we see in every imperial guard regiments but trained, equipped and bred in a different culture; they have emotions, thay can feel fear; this is certainly differently lived and interpreted than in other human cultures because of their bionics supplements, but we are far from mindless tools that fight for the mechanicum.

As an example, I would counsel to read the book of the Horus Heresy where the Word Bearers invade Calth; there are skiitaris there and they aren't dumb machines.

About the tech-use +20; this is not rituals, this is not about the most sacred things of the mechanicum, its about using correctly a computer or go through it. The rituals would be in the like of trade skills and everything. Remember that the term "ritual" is often use in 40k about using tehcnologiy as much as we do nowadays; but I'm actually no techpriest and I know right enough how to use a computer or make work a tv at home.

Well, I actually am a fan of them. I don't think they should be permitted by defualt; and should be something the GM can choose to permit or ban depending on the type of campaign he wishes to run.

I'm actually all for the Rank's access to Tech-Use+20; they pay a premium for it and as was earlier mentioned - they are adept at using technology. Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) is very expensive and only available at Trained level; suggesting there's plenty they're not privy to, and even getting access to the basics of that sort of information is difficult (reflected in the experience cost)

I don't think the rank is appropriate for all games, but nor is a Dark Holder Void Born Living Nightmare Biomancer. Or a Moritat reaper or god knows what else. But no, I don't feel the rank is bad in essence, or indeed in fluff, but definitely too powerful for some specific campaign setups. Like, for instance - a Sororitas.

I intend on playing one in my next campaign, I'm looking at making him a secret logician, and having him go all Hal-9000 on the rest of the party. mitebcool.jpg.

I'd be interested in any ideas of how to portray/roleplay one well, as I've never been good at Ad Mech fluff translating into roleplaying action.

InquisitorAlexel said:

Wrong, absolutly wrong. If he wants to be able to use a cogitator then he would only need Tech Use as an actived skill. I suggest you reading the entire paragraph.

"When using a basic, simple piece of mechanical equipment under normal circumstances, such as a vox or auspex, mo Test is required."

Therefore a Crimson Guard can use a cogitator too he he has not to break a Password or the Machine is Damged, etc.but even if that would be the case he could roll the dice. But when are the dices roled?

"A Tech-Use Test is needed if the item is unusual, malfunctioning or conditions are expecially troublesome, such as atempting to use an auspex during an electrical storm, or trying to get an ancient warp engine to start up […]"

And this kinde of "repairing" or "fixing" always takes into account the rituals of the Adeptus Mechancius for they are not allowed to maintain these tasks without the rituals - this also counts for their sheesy soldiers. But further more the Tech-Priests give their secrets out of hand for the Crimson Guards are NO TECH-PRIESTS they are sanctioned in no way! Even the reclaimaitor, an alternate scum rank to offer the players another tech-verse character that is NO Tech-Priest recieves a +10 as his MAXIMUM. Why on earth should the organisation, that takes "Knowledge is Power" as a religius dogma, give their soldiers the same power they have? INCLUDING the Rituals, INCLUDING all the Knowledge? This is an absolute Fluff-Breaker in ANY way and therefore makes this Career more cheesy as it already is.Even more the Cromson Guard recieves the Forbidden Lore (Adpetus Mechanicus)!!! Why on earth should a simple elite Soldier have this kind of Knowledge that is not even included in the MAGOS Career? An no, they even recieve Forbidden Lore (Archeotec)! A elite Soldier can recieve information that is even kept secret from high ranking TECH-PRIESTS!!! Shal I rember you guys that the ONLY sanctioned individuals in the AdMech, allowed to even know from this knowledge are TECH-PRIESTS! And now gues why? BECAUSE THEY ARE THE PRIESTS! THE RULING CASTE OF THE AdMech THAS IS A THEOCRACY! But know, it is common sense for a ruling caste to give out its most secrets… I mean… they are not the Adeptus with the Most secrets even the Inquisition can only gues what they include… no… it is not the faction, beside the Inquisiton, that values Knowleds over everything… that literaly views this knowledge as holy… nooooooo, not the AdMech…

FieserMoep - A reclaimator is someone clawing at the underbelly of the Ad Mech, they're outside it desperately trying to get in. They do indeed have limited access to Tech-Use, because they're a class that is as much about shady connections, half understanding and staying alive as it is about Tech.

The Crimson Guard aren't just soldiers, they're strategists & masters of war. I personally believe their (expensive) access to +10 & +20 is justified; it reflects the difficulty that getting hold of such training would involve - and so the Guard makes sacrifices in other areas if they wish to pursue the intellectual.

Other classes get access to Tech-Use & Forbidden Lore (Archeotech), they're not exclusives. It's simply a good way of reflecting the ties the rank has to the Ad-Mech - hell; with the expanded Forge World origins - any class that can pick a Forge World origin can start with a Forbidden Lore & Talented in that lore for free!

I mean, it's all in how you want to play the game, and I wouldn't begrudge any GM that wished to 'ban' certain choices at character creation - but I don't believe that the rank is fundamentally flawed, I believe it functions pretty much as intended; albiet incredibly well.

Okay, so let's think constructively - how would you change the rank to fit more 'standard' (read: low) power level DH games?

Lower the AP of their starting armour?

What options to restrict in the career (skills, talents etc.)?

Any drawbacks set into the career?

Having looked quite a bit into this alternate rank lately, I can definitely say it's a very strong option, especially at low ranks.

Mechanically speaking it's a straight upgrade to the guardsman to the point there's little mechanical reaons not to take it instead of rank 1 guardsman (or any other rank 1 alternate path). Starting gear wise you're ahead of anyone but BoM Sisters of Battle and you get a ton of Tech-Priest goodies on the skill list (many of them like the shield or ballistic mechandrite before the Tech-Priest gets them). In the long run however it's not that awesome. You're still a guardsman (and their skill&talent list isn't that great) and a combat tech-priest will still be outperforming you in a combat role. By the point he's taking Mechanicus Secutor he'll be having same number of Flesh is Weak (except he'll get two more later, you're done), +10 toughness from Machinator Array and a ballistic mechandrite that can mount melta, bolt or hellpistols (as opposed to a compact las that probably does little more than scratch the paint off flak armor); only area in which tech priest is behind is the shield (he needs rank 6 for the improved version).

Fluff-wise, leaving the finer points of skitarii lore (I'm not too knowledgeable about AdMech) aside I think the class suffers of the same issues that the abitrator cofessor does: it's a sinficant departure from the base class (the average crimson guard has nothing to do with being a member of the Imperial Guard) to the point many aspects (especially alternate ranks&backgrounds, but also some peer and lores) of the original class no longer fit. However, unless the DM houserules it you can't take alternate ranks&other stuff that would fit more with the story (like some tech-priest ones).

That's actually a problem that a lot of Rank 1's suffer, and the same applies to the Lathesmaster. I gave them both their own characteristic tables, and big Rank 1 tables (and even alternate rank names for the Crimson Guard) because that's where most of the stuff that 'fits' is going to be. You're right in that a Guardsman's other ranks don't 100% fit with the Crimson Guard, but at the same time a Crimson Guard couldn't be a Rank 2 or Rank 4 alternate rank because you don't go from being a Guardsmen to suddenly being a Crimson Guard. You have to start as one (ditto for the Lathesmaster, you can't become one - you either are one originally or you won't ever be one).

And yes, there are a number of items on the Crimson Guard's table that Tech-Priests don't get to later on it, but again it is a huge table, and if you were to buy everything on you'd be so far through the ranks that the Tech-Priest of equivalent level would have caught up.

And the reason the armour weighs so little as it has Lathes construction. Just wanted to clear that up.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

What I think it would have been nice to have would be a sidebars with suggestions on how one could adapt the rest of the guardsman stuff (further ranks, bakcgrounds, alternate ranks etc.) to fit better with the crimson guard. Something like 'a crimson guard has access to the following tech-priest background packages and alternate ranks' maybe.

Also, even if the table is big this doesn't mean that somebody that decides to focus on one aspect can't get a lot of stuff very early.

I know that Tech-Use isn't necessary to simply start up a computer; as a combat test shouldn't be necessary to hit an unprepared opponent in an extremely good situation for the attacker; that's just a question of how you use the stats and how you decide the game is being played as Game Master. But tech use still represents much more basic repairs and USING things that actually exists, not top secret rituals and construction template kept by the mechanicum. There are trade and complexe test streaks for this kind of situation, which tech-use do not cover. Thank you for telling me to read the paragraph; It was obviously the thing that would make me think RIGHT.

Starts are there to represent the capacities a character get; not necesarily (and certainly not) what he can get by normal ways such as having classes with a priest or a tech-priest. Tech-use can represent that the character is highly talentend or experienced, as much as "forbidden lore (archeotech)" on the crimson guard represents that in his works, mainly for the inquisition in the case of Dark Heresy, he was exposed and learned much about this. If you want to speak about a normal crimson guard, working under normal conditions for the Adeptus Mechanicus, you just have to create basic NPC stats for it, which will look like a buffed guardsman with a little mechanicum touch.

We are speaking here about an agent of the Holy Ordos, which has learned a lot more about the mechanicum than normal soldiers, which has access to material specific to his career, and which can, glorious be the access to "free-thinking" in the Inquisition, go further in his knowledge of technology and his use of it. We're not speaking about trooper 437 of the second Crimson Guard Cohort.

My opinion on Crimson guard is that they are both very powerful, and also very weak. At Rank 1, all they have is their admittedly great gear. Fast-forward to rank 4-5, and enemies start getting power weapons that rival the Crimson guard's. In addition, aside from their free cybernetic every other rank, as long as it is not some crazy new integrated weapon, it is a balanced way of compensating the class for having a pleb-tier income. In terms of playing the character, Crimson guards make very good combat characters, but if you have a decent GM, the combat will eventually wear on them in the form of crit effects. After 5 or so boss fights against tough enemies, the character may start losing limbs or take characteristic damage that slowly wears on the character. While luck is a very important part of this, being the most powerful in a group makes you the target, and more likely to receive these permanent effects as a result. This is why strictly combat classes are rough to play as and why the crimson guard is surprisingly balanced at later levels. While they may start powerful, they don't have much room for serious improvement.

The gear issue is redundant, since the inquisition should be handing out mission critical gear as is, and frankly, if you're headed into a combat zone where there are 4-5 boss fights and your superiors aren't expecting it, and kitting you accordingly, they are either incompetent or simply want you dead. In other words, BoM SoB equivalent equipment can well be standard issue for things like Orkz (though why you would send an inquisitorial team against Orkz and not an imperial guard regiment is beyond me) or Genestealers. You just have to give it back when the mission is over. The only "advantage" you have from owning your own high grade armour or plasma weaponry or whatever is that you can bring it with you on every mission. If your GM has half a brain, though, he'll make you regret it. Nothing screams "inquisition" like heavily armed people asking funny questions where they're not supposed to be. Good luck finding a cult.

Crimson Guard are wildly overpowered for a Rank 1 option, compared to all but a couple other Careers. Worse, they completely eliminate the viability of Guardmen, a 40K archetype , because CGs get everything Guardsmen get, plus a crapload of other stuff on top of that. I would't allow them in my campaign unless the whole party was starting at about Rank 4.

I neatly avoid this by playing nowhere near the lathes and telling anyone who wants to play a skitaari that the mechanicus does not typically loan their soldiers to a semi-independant branch of the imperium. The occassional tech priest, yes, but a skitaari? No. They have one single duty and it is not the inqusition. The ecclessiarchy has its own meat shields.