I was thinking about some of the hassle and confusion that might arise out of the "Comrade" rules in Only War. I think the easiest and quickest way to generate a Comrade for your Only War character (for those classes that get a Comrade) is to simply use the statistics for the generic Imperial Guard Trooper NPC on page 372 of the main rulebook, give him the Aptitudes of a Weapon Specialist (for the pupose of raising stats, talents and skills), and then randomly generate a name and demeanor as per the game rules. That would provide the character with a suitable Comrade without having to go through the hassle of generating a whole other characer after you've already made your main character.

I think I will use this when I run my Only War campaign.

Eldartank said:

I believe that's the way the book tells you to do it, actually - your Comrade isn't an additional generated character, you just use the generic Trooper NPC.

MILLANDSON said:

The rule description seemed rather vague to me, and a couple others I spoke to seemed to have the same problem. But then, perhaps I'm as literate in game rules as I am in operating my computer (notice my accidental multiple postings of this topic) Anyway, thanks for your input. And my apologies for the multiple postings.

Actually, my understanding is that Comrades don't have stats at all. They can't do anything except the limited set of Orders and/or special abilities the character buys for them. They have their own unique system for damage. They cannot attack. They don't make skill rolls. They are nothing but a name, a deamenor and maybe a few special abilities.

LuciusT said:

This was my understanding as well. Part of the explanation in the book seemed to suggest that the intent was to make comrades simple, and make them not have to test continually, which would slow down gameplay. I actually find the current implementation (at least, my interpretation of it) to be rather elegant in its simplicity.

Having said that, there's nothing stopping you from fleshing out comrades as fully-statted NPCs with their own actions as a house rule, if you (and your players!) don't mind the extra management. Just remember that this will substantially increase the power of the party if you allow these new "super-comrades" to take their own actions outside of the standard comrade options.

I assumed Comrades would be handled like this:

• If they are close to "their" player character they are in cohesion, they are acting via the Orders that the players can give them and their hitpoints are represented as Healthy, Wounded and Dead.
• If they are away from "their" player character or the GM otherwise feels he needs stats for them he can use the generic Imperial Guardsman profile.

LuciusT said:

This is how I see it too. In the party where I play, 'Comrade' is actually a byword for 'Self-Propelled Bullet Shield' - they always (and usually quite quickly) meet their fate when a PC throws them into harm's way to save his own *ss…

AtoMaki said:

Actually, I don't think you can do that by the rules. Not that I'm not fine with players doing that in practice (I'm actually thinking of making it a house rule) but according to the rules, Comrades as only hit when the GM rolls doubles.

LuciusT said:

Hard to argue when the player literally uses his Comrade as a shield. Other uses (with lethal end) include "mine sweeping", "derp magnet" and "tank obstacle"… So yeah, over here, an ally NPC with little use = dead NPC .

AtoMaki said:

In my games, if you treated your comrades like that, you'd get a swift dealing-with by the Commissar, and you wouldn't have Comrades again, as the Commanding Officer wouldn't shift anyone to fill up your squad.

MILLANDSON said:

We are in the grimdark future of the 40th millenium. People are expendable . Even a lasgun cell is more precious than the life of the guy next to you. A normal Commissar will agree with this, and would probably encourage it. A huge pile of corpses is a cost you have to pay for victory after all. And who cares about idealist officers? it is the Munitorium who fills up the squad, and those guys care even less. And if the officer still messes around, then we could always call a Commissar - what the officer wants is effectively treachery, and what he thinks is heresy.

AtoMaki said:

The tabletop game has the Look Out, Sir rule. This isn't all that different. Personally, I would prefer to think of it as the comrade selflessly throwing himself in the line of fire to protect his buddy rather than his buddy physically hurling him into the line fire as a human shield, but the result is much the same.

LuciusT said:

The Comrades throwing themselves in the way of rounds, or being hit by them instead (shown by the GM rolling doubles to hit), I don't have an issue with. Perpously putting your peers into positions where they get killed first, and using them as "meat shields" is a misuse of the Emperor's soldiers, as well as a sign of cowardice, punishable as the regimental Commissar sees fit.

MILLANDSON said:

Nah, in the Imperial Guard, humanism is for the weak. Sacrificing a random guy to complete your mission is perfectly fine to the point where you can sacrifice dozens, hundres or even thousands (most IG commanders do this 24/7). It is not "misuse" or "cowardice" but simple pragmatism and resource management. Do you think that it is soulless and inhuman? Well, welcome in the Imperium of Man, here is your one-way ticket to Hell!

AtoMaki said:

Personally, I'd rather have the +5 BS or +10 WS the comrade grants as opposed to a single-use extra armor (I'd put a comrade as worth about 8 points of cover, roughly the same as a sandbag). Seems a better use of resources.

AtoMaki said:

Here's the thing. A good commander does not waste men, he uses them. So if the person that is in charge of your players squad notices that your squad is wasting men as opposed to using them that commander will certainly take action. There's nothing wrong with having a comrade draw fire that will rip him to shreds in a few moments and stuff like that but litterally acting as a human shield is wasteful even by IG standards.

So if your players squad is suffering 50% casualties on every assignment because the higher ranking soldiers (the players) are misusing / abusing the lower rank soldiers (the comrades) they should find themselves either demoted, on mine clearing duty or on the firing line pretty soon for wasting the Emperors resources.

And from a mechanical standpoint a 5% chance to hit (or 10%+ in melee) plus a 10% chance to not get hit yourself seems superior to a one-use human shield.

Of course it doesn't happen all the time . The first action of the players at the start of each combat is not "Comrade shield up"… But if the player has the choice between wasting the Comrade or completing the task through more risky and/or difficult means, then the player will wave goodbye to the Comrade. And since Comrades provide so little actual benefit, but failure is generally not an option, the "sacrificial threshold" went lower and lower in the party with each game session (especially as the PCs grew stronger and stronger). So as it now stands, a Comrade lasts for roughly 2-3 combats with our party and usually ends up as a meat shield (though around here, they only provide 6 points of cover).

But yeah, I must admit, this is a YMMV topic. We play a pretty ruthless game, Sven Hassel turned to eleven and grimdark with nightmare spice, but if someone bases his game on the Gaunt's Ghosts books, then I can understand that he sees the sacrifice of the Comrades revolting .

Soldiers may be (mostly) expendable in the Guard, but that doesn’t mean that soldiers just throw one another into the firing line or hide behind one another hoping the other one catches a bullet first. That’s absurd.

I think if anyone in my squad tried that the Commissar’s Bolt Pistol would get a lot of use. “Intentionally killing members of your squad? Heresy!” * blam *

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

But valuing the life of a random grunt over the life of the medic/weapon specialist/heavy gunner is kinda' like… idiocy I guess. So the medic used his Comrade to survive a lasgun barrage. His Comrade is now dead, but the medic survived with insignificant damage. Was it mean from him? Sure! Does it matter? Hell no! If the medic would take the barrage (or risk a Dodge Test what isn't really a life insurance against multiple full-auto attacks) then he would die, and his Comrade cannot replace him. The Squad now lost his medic, and will probably fail his mission, so our imaginary Commissar will have a nice day for some summary execution.

Musclewizard said:

That's basically my view on it - wasting Guardsmen is different to using them.

AtoMaki said:

If they go through to many NPC's well their's a solution to that.

Col> BosMan"Your Captain says your Squad suffers 5000% casualties a week, and your all original members, that tells to me you must have both experience and survival instincts. Warmaster is looking for a Kill Team, Your it good news is you will have a chance to really show your stuff without any FNG's to slow you down!"

PC's now get stuck with the dirtiest and most dangrous jobs Batalion can find, with little or no back up since their not in a Company anymore, there a Kill Team! God-Empeor help them.

My biggest problem is that this assumes you can just grab a guy and throw him into the line of fire or a trap and he wouldn't fight back. That's just stupid and it's a player exploiting a resource for the game's advantage. "Oh no, something scary, I better pull out my eleven-foot pole to trigger the ten-foot trap."

If your squad was worth its salt they would not allow any member of it to put the lives of any other commrade in danger regardless to how ambivelent you are to human life. Likely YOU would be the one to involuntarily volunteer if you kept that kind of shenanigans up. Not to mention the punishments that would be put upon you for your cowardice and lack of respect for the Emperor's resources including the solider and his possessions. Hell the Munnitorium could have you shot just for willfully putting a Guardsman's equipment into such blatent danger.

Not exactly a "cohesive" unit if you're willing to kill your buddy at the drop of a hat.

Imagine for a moment that you're THAT guardsman in question. You're serving your squad when suddenly your mate goes "Stay in front of me, we're getting shot and I want you to die for me" or something vaugely similar as he cowers behind you while pushing you forward. To hell with that, what's to stop me from shooting you in the rights of self-preservation?

AtoMaki said:

Wow! Really? In my game the Commissar would shoot you for cowardice the FIRST time that happened! If the Commisar was a Player I would explain that it was HIS DUTY to shoot you or the regimental Lord Commisar would execute him for dereliction of duty (And he WOULD find out!). Lastly; If there was no Commisar present then all of the squads remaining Comrades would cease being comrades and become NPC guardsmen who would be determined to teach you the meaning of the word "fragging"!

Yes I admit I am a bit emotional on this topic. A squad in the field is your family, your best friends and your only hope of survival! Senior officers may "spend" their recourses that way but they are faceless masses to them. Aside from that it's poor Role playing! There is no "meat shield" order listed in the "standard"orders you can give a comrade. Any such order would be greeted a "Hell no!" and adding "Sir" if you're the Sergeant!

Well, the "Operation Meat Shield" is usually a forced move what includes a nice Grapple from the PC's part (so it is the Gears of War style "meat shield"). I mean, wow, a literal "duck behind the Comrade" would make little sense as the Comrade would be free to simply move away (or take another action what would expose the PC). In addition, over here Intimidate is the "Comrade Command Skill", and Orders are rarely used (msotly because they have little effect, so the playars always forget them). There was a Comrade rebellion in our party, when a Comrade survived a "derp magnet" assignment and freaked out. Since we couldn't intimidate him (bad dice rolls), we simply announced that he is a disloyal troublemaker ("heretic" in short) and flayed him alive in the front of the others (this instantly restored the discipline).

Oh, and our GM also had problems with the Comrade abuse (the aforementioned rebellion was the peak of this), but after some exceptionally brutal and inhuman acts (and after the party showed that PCs could suffer the same fate), we decided that this nicely shakes up the 'WW2 in SPESH' feel what plagues the Imperial Guard. On the other hand, the GM offered us that he will create real NPC Comrades, but since it would degrade the insanity and brutality, we voted it down.

But I think we are off-topic with this. We play it this way, but I can see that this degree of cynicism and ruthlesness is unaccaptable for other people, but we think that this is the very essence of the Warhammer 40k universe (and despise the current change to a "heroic" theme) - the survival of the fittest with the end justifying the means. I just wanted to warn the OP that this could happen and is likely to happen with the Comrades.