"When executing the secondary option of the Technology strategy, you may execute both the primary and secondary abilities."

There's this implication that in order to execute the secondary ability of the Tech SC, you NEED 8 (or 6) resource points. If you don't have the necesary resources, then you cannot benefit from this special ability - is this correct?

Say another player uses Tech II, at which point the Jol-Nar player has only 5 resources available. Can the latter still use the tech ability, effectively getting for free a tech that he wouldn't be able to buy otherwise?
Yes, I know, the Jol-Nar can choose to not pay this price, but it makes sense he should have those resources available in order to have said option available. If the Jol-Nar doesn't have these resources, then he can't activate its racial tech ability, period.

Or, to get to the bottom of it: if the Jol-Nar have, say, 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?

And then, as an addenda, would those resources (TCs not included) be made up of only non-exhausted planets or can they also include exhausted planets (that is, spent resources)?

Sorry for the opening a new thread, but while searching the forum for an answer to this question, I haven't found a precise answer to it.

When you activate the secondary of the Technology Strategy Card (by paying a Command Counter from your Strategy Allocation), you may activate the primary as well. You do not need to pay (or even have the resourses to pay) for the technology card that would be gained by the secondary ability. You are only required to ACTIVATE the secondary, not use it. Hope this helps.

Note that you only gain the technology from the secondary of the Tech SC if you pay for it, however.

I would say it depends on the wording of the tech SC. If it says "May purchase" then you would not be required to be able to pay for the secondary tech. I might be wrong, however, since it would be in line with the Jol-Nar theme as tech-nerds to be able to use their racial agility regardless of if they have any resources or not.

From the official FAQ on the FFG website, downloadable for all, this should clear the issue up. I bolded the important part for quick referance.

Q: Could you explain how the Jol-Nar and the Xxcha abilities

work as they relate to the primary and secondary abilities of

the Strategy Card?

A: When the Jol-Nar player resolves the secondary ability of

the Technology Card, he may also (in addition) execute the

primary ability. This allows the Jol-Nar to both receive a free

Technology (for the primary ability), as well as purchase a

Technology if desired (for the secondary ability). The Jol-Nar

player may choose to receive only the free technology for the

primary ability, and choose not to pay 8 resources for a sec ond

Technology (but the Jol-Nar must still pay a Command

Counter to resolve the secondary ability, unless they chose the

Initiative Strategy). All other players simply resolve the sec ondary

ability as usual. The Jol-Nar ability does not trigger a

second “round” of secondary ability resolution.

According to the Technology 2 SC, is it not possible for the Jol-Nar to recieve 3 technologies in a single turn, if another player plays the Tech SC?

First the Jol-Nar pays a command counter and 6 resources to recieve 1 tech from the secondary,

then gets a free tech and pays 8 resources for the third tech - total 3 techs.

Is this the wrong way of doing it?

The Jol-Nar may infact gain 3 technology advances with the Technology 2 Strategy Card, as explained on page 16 of the Shattered Empire rule book.

Archangelion said:

Right or wrong I have to disagree with this. And yes, I saw where it was answered in the Q&A. Still seems incorrect.

The Jol-Nar ability reads, "when executing the secondary ability…" By definition, execute means "carry out" or "accomplish." Accomplishing something doesn't mean starting and then not actually finishing. Therefore, by completing the process of the Secondary ability (I.e. paying the resource cost and gaining the tech) you may then activate the primary ability.

Again, this is a personal interpretation and the way my friends and I play.

In the FAQ it's not clear whether "choose not to pay 8 resources" implies "8 AVAILABLE resources" or "8 NON-AVAILABLE resources". Therefore my simple question still stands: if the Jol-Nar have 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?

Imho common sense should dictate that those resources must exist (exhausted planet or not), otherwise an SC ability cannot be "executed". To use an example, it's a bit like asking a bank for a credit guaranteed by your existent income: you don't actually give said income to the bank, but you have to have it in order to qualify for the credit. If your income is under the value needed for the credit, then you don't get the credit.

The designer has mentioned in the past that Twilight 3 rules are applied as they are written. Players may not "add or subtract" to a twilight rule just because it makes sense to them.

You just do what the rule says.

The FAQ clearly states that Jol nar only needs "a strategy counter" to satisfy the secondary of tech.

Whether it makes alot of sense to say, Jolnar should also need 8 resources also … That does not matter.

It is not mentioned in the rule.

Most new players make the mistake of trying to apply "common sense" and add things to the rules.

They start their arguement saying…"Common sense says to me……and this also should be needed".

That player has just lost his arguement, no matter what rule he is talking about.

Why? Because twilight 3 rules are applied as they are written so you can do things like this.

H ouse rule - Warsuns are not ships . (Warsuns are now units like a Space dock or Space mine, etc.)

So now Warsuns can fly through other ships. Warsuns are not affected by "Direct HIt" nor "Flank Speed"

Why? Those rules only affect ships. And Warsuns are no longer ships.

By doing only what the rule says and no more. Some amazing things can be added to the game without getting into alot of explainations.

It may seem very strange that common sense is not used in interpreting the rules, but apply the rule "as it is written" is used to great effect in this game.

Regardless of what the FAQ may say, I will continue to play the ability as it is written on the card. "Execute" being the key word. If the wording is changed to "initiate" or something similar I will have no choice but to concede. Until then, the ability is too OP if you interpret it the way you are trying to.

Everyone modifies this game to their likely. That is one of the interesting aspects of this game.

Some GM's will even boost some races a little to make them stronger and nerf some other races they think are too strong.

But if you play a twilight 3 game online or at a convention, Jol nar's "spend 1 strategy counter for a free tech" is the standard game play.

This rule is not in dispute for most players.

(Gamewise, Jolnar race really does need this advantage to get tech early as possible since they get beat up real badly if they are attacked early. One or two more techs can make a huge difference to a besieged Jolnar player. That "-1 to hit" is really bad if you do not have alot of techs acquired.)

If you ever GM or are just a player in a twilight 3 game with other players you do not know; just list your rule as a homebrew rule. This is done by twilight 3 gamers all the time to cover rules that do not like or do not accept.

Shadow said:

I totally agree with you there. But, to keep kicking the horse, I wish the rule read "When activating the secondary ability of the Technology Strategy Card, the Jol-Nar player may execute the Primary Ability and/or the Secondary Ability." I really feel that an "Errata" should be included in the next expansion. Especially since the group of five guys that I play with all interpreted the rule… well… wrong apparently.

Either way, case closed. No resources are necessary. So with initiative the Jol-Nar get free tech. Couple that with the potential to unlock all the tech needed for war suns on their second turn. Even accounting for a -1, still OP.

I would not call Jol-Nars racial ability OP due to the simple fact that they need all the techs they can get just to get to the same combat ability as all other races, except the 'Norr, start at.

Thank you , guys, for the input. So the official position on this is that when it comes to executing their tech ability, resources are irrelevant to the jol-Nar player. Every other interpretation falls under the label of house rules.

However, wording in the FAQ and in the game and in the rulebook leaves a lot to be desired (and I'm being very diplomatic here). Nevermind though, house rules can always be applied.

Again many thanks and a Happy New Year to all .

This is a good chance to ask a question from a recent "learning" game.

Another race selected the trade strategy and implemented the negotiations.

It seemed somewhat broken to have the Jol Nar then retro-actively "re" implement the trade negotiations.

We couldn't find anything at the time so we punted the primary from the Jol Nar evil web of doing everyting twice

Some clarification would be most appreciated

I'm not familiar with any rule that lets the Jol-Nar do everything twice. Which rule are you talking about?

The best clarification I can come up with is that the Jol-Nar May use the Technology (7) primary when using the Technology (7) secondary. Not the Trade (4).

Some issues are solved by simply reading the text on the cards word for word!

He might be dyslexic. Or simply not have english as a first language. In that case, reading again won't do much good. It's better if we just explain it calmly.

If either or both of those issues (or any other similar issues) are the issue, then the player would be aware of the set back and can ask another player to check the card for him to be sure that he understands it properly. If the other players are aware of either or both of such issues (or any other similar issues) they should offer their assistance to the player, or simply double check the cards themselves when they are played/used, to confirm the card's acuracy. It is unfair to everyone, both the player playing the card and the other players in the game, for any one player to be using cards improperly, both because they may be gaining an unfair advantage through a misinterpretation, or may not be gaining the full advantage of a card/abilitiy (thus other players would gain an unfair advantage through a misinterpretation). In both cases, simply reading a card word for word, and having another player double check the card if need be, will make the game more fun, if done in a proper and courtious manner, for all players involved. It will also allow all players to understand what the racial abilities of other races are, what all the strategy cards in the game do, and what is actually happening in the game (so long as they are paying attention). All in all, making sure EVERYONE understands the rules of each card properly is EVERYONE's job in a game so that EVERYONE can have fun, so I will say again…

Simply reading rules text word for word can solve issues such as this.

And I will add, if reading text in such a manner isn't enough, disecting what the rules mean by going over termanology might help. If this doesn't help, have somone look up on their phone or computer the FAQs. If this doesn't help, check forums. If this doesn't help, have all players agree on a proper course to follow that is fair to all players. Most house rules should be discussed and agreed upon before a game begins, but there are times when something comes up during a game that wasn't forseen and needs to be adressed. If you can't agree on a solution, roll for it!

Try and keep things fun! Help other players if they are having issues, even if it means showing them that if they destroy your one fleet at a certain spot they can claim a certain public objective! In the end, it is better to lose a game, but gain a person who will want to play the game again because they had fun, than it is to win a game, but lose a person who might have played again but won't because they had a bad experiance.

Well spoken. It is not often that one comes by people with such eloquence as you have given proof of.

donpaulo said:

The Jol-Nar can only redo the Primary of Technology, no other Strategy card, so they can do nothing towards Trade

Thanks for the clarification

I think that when one is responsible for teaching the game as well as answering all rules questions and trying to get his nut around winning his first few games it can be rather overwhelming. Yes indeed the answer was right in my face. I know I won't make that mistake again. Other mistakes will however surely be made.

Its reassuring to have a forum to go and ask "foolish" questions without fear of being ridiculed, derided or otherwise mocked.

I know that when others come to me with questions that fall within my purview I tend to be as informative and polite as possible. Perhaps that is why I have no problem asking stupid questions.

I have found that a forum which welcomes newbies and their "questions" is both inclusive and quite likely to elicit further interactions

There are ALOT of rules in Twilight. Getting to know them all is difficult enough. Getting to know them all, being the only one who does, and playing with people who haven't played before and trying to explain the rules to them whilst trying to play is rediculusly difficult (I know from experiance). I have come to the realisation that when teaching new players, it's best to teach alot of new players and take the game slowly. Don't focus on winning at all, focus on making sure that as many of the rules come up in the game, and make sure they come up lots. Perform transfer actions (these don't generally come up in alot of the games I play with more experianced players). Perform tactical retreats, and normal retreats just to show how they work. Make sure every strategy card gets used in the game, and that every strategy card's secondary also gets used.

Your new players need to take their first game not so much as a game, but as a learning experiance on how to play. They need to understand that TI is such a vast game that it litterally takes a few games just to get a handle on it. I would suggest to you to suggest to your newer players to watch the video crash courses on YouTube just to get a general idea on how to play, that way they have the basics of what they are doing before they get to your house. Also, let them know where they can download the rules PDFs (on this website), so that if they have the time and determination, they can read the rules themselves. The more the new players know about the game, the more like an actual game the first game will become.

I love Twilight Imperium. The vast complexities, the varient of races, planets, action cards, and political cards make no two games alike.

I understand the need to simply state what the rule is for the question that is asked on a forum, I believed that the question had already been answered however, thus, my responce. Stateing a rule as a responce is giving a man a fish. Stating what I stated, a step by step process on how best to find out what the rules are in any given situation, I hope is teaching a man how to fish. I hope I helped in my own way.

Remember, wording is everything. If a rule says you MAY do something, it doesn't mean that you must. So when playing with players who are more seasoned, and they forgot to do something, if it said 'may' then they missed their chance. If it doesn't, then they need to do it regardless if they want to or not. With less seasoned or new players, let them go back and do it (so long as it doesn't effect the game to much) and remind them that since the rule says 'may' that in the future if they don't use that ability they choose not to benfit (do it in a nice way though ).