I'm trying to run my first RT campaign for some players. I'm wanting to add some depth in the story and create an Astartes contact. My question is, what really happens to an Astartes who has broken his Oath of Moment? I feel ridiculous for not already knowing…I might even know the answer and just not remember.
A question about Astartes
Oath of moment is something introduced in the Horus Heresy novels, it isn't something touched upon elsewhere to any real degree. Now that 10 thousand years have passed and many chapters have greatly diverged from the legions they were originally part of i'd imagine a lot of them either don't make such oats or make them in a very different way.
The Iron Snakes chapter for example are from a watery death world. Their chapter structure has each squad accompanied by an Apothecary who has a vial of water from their home world. Before important missions each member of the squad is annointed with the water.
Black templars on the other hand are fairly close to their original Legion in so far as they are constantly 'crusading'. This means that oaths are taken all over the place by their members and its not unusual for a Black Templar to go into battle adorned with dozens of purity seals inscribed with the oaths he has taken.
Ultimatel its up to you - there is no hard and fast rule for it, though i suggest looking in the Deathwatch core rulebook as it has a selection of oaths that the players can make before each mission.
Thank you so much for your answer. That helps me a lot. I always knew them simply as "purity seals" until I read the Horus Heresy novels. I was just not sure if there was a specific punishment for breaking it. So if I were to introduce a banished NPC or group of NPC Astartes all left to a planet with horrible conditions and no civilisation…Do you think that would be an acceptable idea? Or do you believe the punishment would be less or more severe?
ThunderBear said:
Thank you so much for your answer. That helps me a lot. I always knew them simply as "purity seals" until I read the Horus Heresy novels. I was just not sure if there was a specific punishment for breaking it. So if I were to introduce a banished NPC or group of NPC Astartes all left to a planet with horrible conditions and no civilisation…Do you think that would be an acceptable idea? Or do you believe the punishment would be less or more severe?
One does not abandon an Astartes as they are simply too rare. if they do somethin treasonous, then they are killed. Otherwise, they are simply directed at the enemy again until they atone or die trying. Some are given to the Deathwatch, especially if they are disgraced within their own Chapter but highly skilled.
I figured as much. I'm trying to create an Astartes and figured an easy way would be to make him banished. I'm now thinking of having him flee to avoid death. The reasoning behind it is wanting this NPC to provide work and knowledge that will tie into the plot of why he isn't in any unit in the first place. If the Imperium or Inquisition are actively searching for him, that could also add in some suspense and/or stress.
Actually, there is a way of getting a sole Astartes because he's upholding an oath, not because he has broken one. This is called the Death Oath, and I think that the most notable character that received one is Uriel Ventris (and he's one of the two Ultramarines that I like). What is a Death Oath? It's quite simple: an Astartes is charged with a suicidal mission, stripped of all honour and ranks and virtually cast out of his Chapter. If he ever succeeds, he's again in the Chapter.
But, generally, he had to fail earlier in something important and be something other than a "cannon fodder" Astartes (I'd say at least a sargeant), because he's seeking redemption.
While upholding the Death Oath the Astartes cannot count other Space Marines as his allies, he cannot resuply in their facilities etc. He's just a lone superhuman bent on doing the nearly impossible.
I like all the replies so far. But what about just having the lone marine need a ride from the Trader to rejoin his chapter? Or alternately he was left behind (possibly assumed dead) by his chapter that set off on a crusade and is hitching a ride on the Traders ship until he figures out what to docoe where to go next.
The "presumed dead" angle is a tricky one, because the Chapter would attempt to recover his geneseed - with the Apothecary obviously discovering that the guy is still alive. It depends on the circumstances, though. If it was enemy territory and his brethren decided a recovery mission would be too dangerous … alternatively, he could be the sole survivor of an entire strike force that was wiped out, almost having joined his Brother-Marines in death (but having recovered over the course of several lonesome weeks thanks to his superhuman physique), his Chapter not even knowing what went wrong and simply having lost contact with his Company.
I agree with Behir in that the Oath would be the most convenient, easiest, and most interesting/promising way to include a single Astartes or a small group of them, though.
If you go with the sole survivor route, you could even make him an apothecary that reccovered all his battlebrothers geneseed and must return it to the chapter.
Cryhavok said:
If you go with the sole survivor route, you could even make him an apothecary that reccovered all his battlebrothers geneseed and must return it to the chapter.
I like this angle quite a bit. Lots of potential hooks for GM.
But also as far as I can tell, not all gene seed is recovered, and in several novels a battle brother is given up for dead only to return later in some dramatic fassion. So any GM that tries to claim the fluff says all gene seed is always recovered is being a bit to narrow in my opinion.
DigitalRedneck said:
But also as far as I can tell, not all gene seed is recovered, and in several novels a battle brother is given up for dead only to return later in some dramatic fassion.
A Chapter's geneseed is its life, and any loss in geneseed lowers the Chapter's ability to replace casualties. A number of Chapters were disabled or went into extinction only because they lost too much of their geneseed. This is also why the geneseed storage is the single-most protected place within a fortress-monastery … and on Armageddon, Inquisitorial black-ops snipers have specifically targeted Apothecaries just to prevent them from reclaiming the geneseed of the fallen.
So when a novel author crafts his story around a Chapter's casual disregard for its fallen brethren .. then I'm gonna say that
this author
is "a bit narrow".
But, of course the above is just as per GW's material. There may be other interpretations of the geneseed's importance, depending on the source one would look at.
With that thought, you could have a disgraced apothecary who, after showing his blatant disregard for fallen geneseed, was told not to come back until he recovered X amount of geneseed from the sites of fallen brothers.
DigitalRedneck
said:
Cryhavok said:
If you go with the sole survivor route, you could even make him an apothecary that reccovered all his battlebrothers geneseed and must return it to the chapter.
I like this angle quite a bit. Lots of potential hooks for GM.
But also as far as I can tell, not all gene seed is recovered, and in several novels a battle brother is given up for dead only to return later in some dramatic fassion. So any GM that tries to claim the fluff says all gene seed is always recovered is being a bit to narrow in my opinion.
That being said, I kind of like the disgraced apothecary idea I just posted more as it adds more dimensions to the situation than the hero does in my opinion.
I am not sure we have the same Deathwatch core book? In mine it does not say that marines always deploy with a apothecary who must collect all the gene seed from the fallen or face banishment and disgrace. It does say stuff like recovering the chapters precious gene seed will be aattempted if at all possible. But I see no indication that an apothecary is ever told "don't come back without all the gene seeds or else!".
Cryhavok said:
If you go with the sole survivor route, you could even make him an apothecary that reccovered all his battlebrothers geneseed and must return it to the chapter.
This is my favorite idea because it includes so many plot hooks. Not only must he return, but all kinds of people would kill to get gene seed! Then there is the result of whatever mission the apothecary was on at the time. Great way to get some bad guys chasing the PCs.. Oh, the list is endless.
Lynata said:
DigitalRedneck said:
But also as far as I can tell, not all gene seed is recovered, and in several novels a battle brother is given up for dead only to return later in some dramatic fassion.
Not all geneseed is recovered, but the attempt will certainly be made.
A Chapter's geneseed is its life, and any loss in geneseed lowers the Chapter's ability to replace casualties. A number of Chapters were disabled or went into extinction only because they lost too much of their geneseed. This is also why the geneseed storage is the single-most protected place within a fortress-monastery … and on Armageddon, Inquisitorial black-ops snipers have specifically targeted Apothecaries just to prevent them from reclaiming the geneseed of the fallen.
So when a novel author crafts his story around a Chapter's casual disregard for its fallen brethren .. then I'm gonna say that
this author
is "a bit narrow".
But, of course the above is just as per GW's material. There may be other interpretations of the geneseed's importance, depending on the source one would look at.
I don't recall accusing any Author of casually dismissing the importance of gene seed. Not in any novel I have read so far have I seen this. More have I ever read a novel about marines where every fallen brothers seed has been recovered, either. (that I can recall off hand. And I think I've read only five or six books with SM as the focus… So I don't know everything!! Lol)
Lynata said:
… and on Armageddon, Inquisitorial black-ops snipers have specifically targeted Apothecaries just to prevent them from reclaiming the geneseed of the fallen.
Was there a reason/context for this action or was it another case of an author writing the inquisition to be dicks for the LOLs.
lurkeroutthere said:
Lynata said:
… and on Armageddon, Inquisitorial black-ops snipers have specifically targeted Apothecaries just to prevent them from reclaiming the geneseed of the fallen.
Was there a reason/context for this action or was it another case of an author writing the inquisition to be dicks for the LOLs.
There had to be context…. Can you fill us in on circumstances. It sounds like a fun senerio for a DH game…
ThunderBear said:
I'm trying to run my first RT campaign for some players. I'm wanting to add some depth in the story and create an Astartes contact. My question is, what really happens to an Astartes who has broken his Oath of Moment? I feel ridiculous for not already knowing…I might even know the answer and just not remember.
I think we have moved very far away from answering the OPs actual question.. I don't personally know what happens.. But there are many reasons alluded to in both RT and Deathwatch as to why a RT may have even a whole company of marines aboard his or her vessel…
I have been toying with the idea of a team of marines being stationed on a RT vessel so my players can each play a RT character and also a marine and they would switch from marine missions and RT stuff… Just an idea we haven't tried yet..
DigitalRedneck said:
Lynata said:
DigitalRedneck said:
But also as far as I can tell, not all gene seed is recovered, and in several novels a battle brother is given up for dead only to return later in some dramatic fassion.
Not all geneseed is recovered, but the attempt will certainly be made.
A Chapter's geneseed is its life, and any loss in geneseed lowers the Chapter's ability to replace casualties. A number of Chapters were disabled or went into extinction only because they lost too much of their geneseed. This is also why the geneseed storage is the single-most protected place within a fortress-monastery … and on Armageddon, Inquisitorial black-ops snipers have specifically targeted Apothecaries just to prevent them from reclaiming the geneseed of the fallen.
So when a novel author crafts his story around a Chapter's casual disregard for its fallen brethren .. then I'm gonna say that
this author
is "a bit narrow".
But, of course the above is just as per GW's material. There may be other interpretations of the geneseed's importance, depending on the source one would look at.
I don't recall accusing any Author of casually dismissing the importance of gene seed. Not in any novel I have read so far have I seen this. More have I ever read a novel about marines where every fallen brothers seed has been recovered, either. (that I can recall off hand. And I think I've read only five or six books with SM as the focus… So I don't know everything!! Lol)
Using Deathwatch core as the source, it says on page 69 that "…it has been known for a Chapter to withhold its honor service to the Deathwatch if too many of its Space Marines serving with the Ordo have been killed and their precious gene seed irretrievably lost.". So obviously there is past precident for marines being left for dead and their seed being given up for lost. And thus that marine could easily be hitching a ride on a Rogue Traders ship in order to rejoin the Chapter or compleate his mission, etc…
DigitalRedneck said:
I don't recall accusing any Author of casually dismissing the importance of gene seed. Not in any novel I have read so far have I seen this. More have I ever read a novel about marines where every fallen brothers seed has been recovered, either. (that I can recall off hand. And I think I've read only five or six books with SM as the focus… So I don't know everything!! Lol)
In a lot of cases it could probably be explained away as recovery not having been possible because it was too dangerous or whatever, but it shouldn't be a recurring theme (which it sounds like, from your description) …
lurkeroutthere said:
Was there a reason/context for this action or was it another case of an author writing the inquisition to be dicks for the LOLs.
This is from GW's old Armageddon 3 global campaign website:
All the material on the website was also printed in the White Dwarf issues of that time, although not everything in the magazine also made it online, so it's still worth it to hunt down the actual WDs too. Still, the site is pretty cool in general. Lots of interesting fluff (not just about Marine Chapters, but about IG and Orks as well).
I'm sure some of this could serve as inspiration for DW. I've been doing so myself!
Right on. You are so right that lots of marines being MIA and not having a Apothacary going the extra mile to recover the Genes would be totally wrong. I see the apothecaries as being like our real life medics and doing all kinds of insanely brave **** in the course of "just doing their job". I love those guys.
Ps. Reading over my posts some sounded snarky to me, and I want to apologize. I'm posting from my phone while at work so I'm trying to condense my replies. You sound very knowledgable and fun. Wish we could game together one day.
No worries! I've seen way snarkier posters, and truth be told, my own stubbornness may glimpse through in some my posts as well (even after my epiphany concerning "canon", though that certainly helped to deal with a lot of issues), as best as I try to avoid it. I think in good part we can blame it on the internets - the condensation you already mentioned as well as sarcasm and other underlying themes getting lost.
I definitively agree about the combat medics and the importance of their job - an oft-overlooked thing in fiction as well as in media, although fortunately at least the actual soldiers tend to know and appreciate them better.
And thanks for the warm words!
Since you've been so kind in your last post, I dug out the old WD #102 which actually had a few pages about Imperial medics. Could be inspirational for anyone who is interested in playing a Deathwatch Apothecary or an Imperial Guard Medicae! Or perhaps even for the contact mentioned in this thread, if OP adopt's the idea about it being an Apothecary on a quest.
The Marines tensed as they heard the faint but unmistakable sound of an approaching mole mortar shell. Battle-brother Draeg was already moving before the earth began to bulge upwards - hurling himself flat onto the rising shell before his brothers even saw it. He was only fully aware of his action when his world exploded in white flame that hurled him down into darkness.
It was the feel of cold air on his face and the acrid smell of burnt flesh that revived him to a dim awareness. He struggled to ignore the pain of his shattered body and made his remaining eye focus on the figure that knelt beside him.
"Your wounds are too grave, Brother", he heard the Medic speak, as though from a great distance. "Do you desire the Emperor's Peace?" The Medic raised the carnifex, and Draeg was dimly aware of the click as the bolt was drawn back into the firing position. With what remained of his life, Draeg tried to speak. The Medic seemed to understand.
"The others? They are whole, Brother. You saved them. Your name is entered into the Book of Honour."
Draeg nodded weakly, and closed his eye. His gene-seed would return to the Chapter.
--
It had once been an arm. The melta-blast had fused metal, flesh and bone into a twisted mass; weapon, armour and arm were indistinguishable. The bolter's magazine had exploded under the intense heat, showering the Marine with shrapnel. There might yet be hope, though.
The Medic worked swiftly, cauterising head and body wounds. He pulled a tube from the elbow-joint of his power armour and pushed the end into the Marine's good arm. Fighting off cramp and dizziness - for this was his fourth transfusion - the unlimbered his chainsword.
"The pain will pass, Brother", he murmured as he brought it down on the maimed shoulder.
--
He that may still fight, heal him.
He that may fight no more, give him peace.
He that is dead, take from him the Chapter's due.
- attributed to Master of the Apothecarion Aslon Marr
Sidenote: the above is from late 1st Edition 40k, when Apothecaries were still called Medics, explaining the weird terminology. The article even had a picture showing Squat medics evacuating a wounded Imperial Guard trooper! An interesting detail that could possibly be adopted into playing a Marine Apothecary might be the blood transfusion tube that can "link" the Apothecary to a wounded Astartes. Another picture of the article depicted an Apothecary discharging his bolter whilst simultaneously donating blood to a Space Marine on the ground nearby, with the caption describing it as a "standard field transfusion". Badass!
DigitalRedneck
said:
I am not sure we have the same Deathwatch core book? In mine it does not say that marines always deploy with a apothecary who must collect all the gene seed from the fallen or face banishment and disgrace. It does say stuff like recovering the chapters precious gene seed will be aattempted if at all possible. But I see no indication that an apothecary is ever told "don't come back without all the gene seeds or else!".
Cryhavok said:
DigitalRedneck
said:
I am not sure we have the same Deathwatch core book? In mine it does not say that marines always deploy with a apothecary who must collect all the gene seed from the fallen or face banishment and disgrace. It does say stuff like recovering the chapters precious gene seed will be aattempted if at all possible. But I see no indication that an apothecary is ever told "don't come back without all the gene seeds or else!".
Some points I'd like to make. First, I was not, nor was I ever, speaking of any all inclusive situation that all apothecaries find themselves in. I was suggesting a story for one, single individual situation that could arise. Second, I agree that no chapter would be likely to tell its apothecaries "dont come back with out all the geneseed." My suggestion was specific to the idea of an individual, who had shown such a disregard for collecting the geneseed, when he did have the oportunity, that his chapter set him a near impossible task, suited to his failing, similar to uriel ventris' death oath. In no way was I suggesting this would in anyway a normal thing, or even anything more than an extremely unusual situation. I suggested it because the OP seemed to be looking for a marine that was separated from his chapter by a disgrace, but was not a renegade. I hope this clears up any confusion about what I posted.
I was reading the Apoth section in Deathwatch this afternoon, and I can see some sort of death oath type Geneseed recovery mission like your talking about for sure. not necesarialy because of any disgrace but rather out of their bad ass sense of duty. There could be disgrace if needed, tho