TheRealLeo said:

I think that's a good thing, to be honest. Fetal AI is good enough that I would use it with either identity, but the synergy with Personal Evolution is probably the one thing that'll keep me from putting PE back in the box and never taking it out again.

Forcing a run on a central server is huge . And you don't need triple tollbooths or Archers or even Katanas for Replicating Perfection to be worthwhile…a simple Hunter on Archives is enough to add insult to injury, but even if it's just a wasted click for the run, that'e enough to get more mileage out of your Bullfrog and Nisei II delays, seriously hurt Wyldside, and so on.

So by subtly boosting their comparatively lackluster core set identity, they're encouraging a more diverse range of viable Jinteki strategies, which is definitely welcome news.

TheRealLeo said:

I don't this is an accurate statement at all. Nothing says that every card they release in the data pack cycle has to help the identity released in the data pack cycle over the core set identities. Both identities need cards to expand their decks with.

So, can I just beef up my hand and remote servers then, leaving my 45 card deck naked? (Are there cards that let me search my RnD and add them to my HQ? If so, I'm going for agenda and completely minimizing the chances of the runner grabbing any from RnD!)

vermillian said:

Then again, Jinteki does have Precognition …

Toqtamish said:

Furthermore, consider that the opposite- FFG supports the new identity with cards that promote it over the older one- would undermine older cards instead. Thus, we'd only be two expansions in and yet Jinteki's original identity would already be "obsolete".

At this point, going back to Jinteki's 1st identity is a fair thing to do as far as fleshing out the game is concerned. Besides, it can't be said that the new identity doesn't already have the parts it needs from the Core Set or WLA.

Toqtamish said:

But there really isn't anything that truly helps the new identity right now at all. If there had been at least one card that clearly was more useful with the new identity over the original, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but there isn't. Something like an operation that can rearrange a piece of ice or two would have done the trick, but we haven't seen anything like that yet, so now we have to wait for this one to become more useful, and the more likely choice right now would be to stick with the original identity.

EQUAL support would have been optimal, so that anyone who wants to play Jinteki now has to think hard about which identity they want. Even just one card that works better with the new one would have been helpful. Of course, it probably wasn't as bad as releasing Imp alongside Whizzard. Still, though, I'm not feeling very encouraged to try this new identity, considering it is going to be too hard to maintain a solid arrangement of ice on my central servers, especially with the popularity of Parasite and Femme Fatale in my local meta.

And no, Hunter is not really that insulting, especially if I'm running Kate with my Rabbit Holes and Toolbox. Then I'm just laughing at you. And with all the new (and very painful) trace cards, that's not at all an unlikely scenario. I've even started throwing those silly Access to Globalsecs into my other decks, just because it gets to be rather costly having to fight off all these new traces, so Hunter's stock as dropped drastically.

The problem is that BOTH Jinteki Identities SUCK

The 1st one rarely happens, and even when it does the effect is pretty minor (and please spare me the stories about how you won because a stupid runner forgot about the effect)

The 2nd one is much stronger in that the effect is basically - The runner must spend 1 additional click to run remove servers this turn
which basically means it will happen more often… EXCEPT… 2 out of the 3 runners prefer to run on Central Servers anyways…

Well at the very least Jinteki might have a better economy now, since trashing Pad Campaigns are slightly more of a hassle

I wouldn't say they both suck, I just think they need a bit of playtesting. I'm really looking forward to running Jinteki with the new Identity, Shipment from Kayuga, and a whole ton of remote servers, just to mess with people. And once Bullfrog comes out, it'll be even better. Jinteki's new identity just requires them to slap Wall of Thorns or Neural Katana on your core servers and it's like adding an additional ICE to all of your remote servers, the more the merrier. My only real apprehension right now is that you'll be relying a bit on card draws, and it will take a long time to set up.

Devlan said:

Ah dont get me wrong I think the new Identity is significantly better than the current one, but lets compare a bit

HB +1 Credit per turn or Make the runner potentially spend +1~2 credits per run
Weyland +1 Credit every few turns, with potential of it happening 2~3x in one turn
NBN +2 Credit per turn but with a narrow usage, slightly better tho with WLA but still a bit 'eh' but whatever

Then on Jinteki side we get 1 Net Damage about 3~5x per game

The new one at least equates to the runner needing to spend 1 extra action per turn to run on your remote servers however this is reduced by 2 things

1 - This assumes he was not going to run a central anyways, and honestly running R&D once per turn is often pretty good idea
2 - The runner wanted to run your remote servers to begin with that turn

2 is a little tricky but let me explain, There are 3 Runner Factions - Anarch, Criminal and Shaper

Anarch because of medium specialize in running R&D
Criminal because of Sneakdoor Beta and Gabe specialize in running HQ
Shapers are a little bit more versatile in that they have less bias but then they fall into the first reason 1, in that they probably want to peak at your R&D every turn or go wild with a Makers Eye

I will admit tho, this new card probably the better of the 2 choices, and I want to try Jinteki with it and making a ton of asset servers. This actually does sound kinda of fun. Not to mention Bullfrog seems a lot more interesting with this card (assuming a runner doesnt just break his subs to avoid needing to dealing with your shenanigans)

I saw this thread receive a lot of praise commenting the Jinteki Net Damage Identity with the new Fetal AI, except Runners have already become accustomed to overdrawing when facing Jinteki. So they likely will not flatline from the 1 extra damage from the Identity.

However it actually combos better with the new Identity by compounding things. Allow me to explain as well. If the Runner needs to spend an action to overdraw, then they need an action to run a central server, and then finally they get to spend an action to actually make the run on the Fetal AI, assuming they even are running on the Fetal AI since Jinteki probably has a bunch of remote servers, This in my eyes punish runners much more heavily than them having to discard an extra card.

IMO, the new Jinteki identity is on par with HB's original identity. It will have a positive, ongoing effect on the game from start to finish, (positive if you're the Jinteki player anyway.)

IMO, the original Jinteki identity is a touch better than Weyland's, (given the card pool at the moment,) but not quite as good as the original HB identity. I believe that too many people look at one net damage as insignificant. The problem is that people think the only thing damage is good for is flatlining the runner. I'm gonna get all obnoxious and internet-yelling now. *THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF JINTEKI'S ORIGINAL IDENTITY* While yes, it can help arrive at that end, the primary purpose is to disrupt the runner. Runner decks are tight and often only have deck space for 1 or 2 copies of a particular card. When the runner takes a single point of damage that doesn't kill him/her, it's not *just* wasting a click to have drawn that card and another to replace it; it's also potentially getting rid of a threat -- probably permanently (at least with the current cardpool, Anarch aside.)

profligate said:

I agree with that. Jinteky is Jinteky, it harder to master, it depends on bluffing [a social skill], it is tricky. Jinteky decks is for pro poker gamers who can easy bluff and adapt. In many player hands it is weaker corps comparing to HB, NBN, W. But it is diferent and if you have good bluff skills it is amazing what you can pull off with it. So I think this whole comparing is a mater of point of view and local metagame.

I don't think the two Identity cards can be compared head-to-head, as the new one in particular creates almost a new style of play.

The Core Set Identity is more about attrition, and as noted above, about disrupting the Runner by forcing discards of critical cards. Unlike tag-based Net damage, you are guaranteed discards from the Runner's hand, whether you are winning or she is. That's valuable in and of itself.

The new Identity, on the other hand, is more about building up a fortress-like position. At the start, yes, it's only an extra click for a run on a remote server, as the Runner will just go through the typically undefended Archives. But as soon as all three central servers have ice up, you are extracting not just a click, but possibly an extra toll for every run. A minimum level of protection on each of the servers - say, a Wall of Static - will extract a click and some extra credits every time the Runner wants to even think about hitting a remote server - even one with an annoying Pad Campaign sitting undefended. That won't break the Runner the way a timely Snare! will, but it absolutely will put a lot of pressure on the Runner's time and credit pool.

Given that difference, I see the two decks building very differently. Right now, with Jinteki you're better off loading it with traps and trying to fill the Runner with fear of the dreaded flatline - or at a minimum, being forced to discard a needed card. With the new Identity, it will be more about loading up the deck with cheap but effective ice that provides a protective outer layer to the central servers, with more powerful ice going to protect critical servers, particularly "inner" remote servers. It's less Jinteki-i (so to speak), and more fortress HB-ish - but with the option to do some damage to the Runner at the same time.

Someone who gets it.

Identity cards are not intended to be looked as power cards, but as strategy defining cards. If you are choosing your identity based solely on how powerful the identity is, you run the risk of an identity and deck that don't really compliment each other. Choosing an identity is a declaration of strategy, and possibly even play style preference. If you like bluffing and forcing the runner to waste time and cards then the Core Jinteki ID is for you, but if you like a more direct approach while forcing the runner to waste time and credits the Trace Amount Jinteki ID is for you.

This identity lets you create a single massive iced up server to protect your agendas with enough dangerous ice on your central servers to keep them from getting easy access. Every run they initiate and jack out after the first ice to target your giant server is wasted time and credits on their part. And they still have to get through your fortified server to get to that agenda you've been advancing. If they ignore that server then your agendas are perfectly safe to advance and score as is convenient to you.

The original ID is about spreading your server's out and playing a guessing game on the order of 3-card Monty. Where is the agenda? Is that a Snare! there? Perhaps a Junebug? If it is an agenda is it a Fetal AI? Is it a PAD campaign. With little ability to tell, and now Trick of Light to move credits from a Prject Junebug to an unadvanced agenda laid out last turn lets you score a 4 point with little fear.

Jinteki is not for everyone, Weyland and Haas-Bioroid are certainly going to be much more straight forward and much more well suited to the average player, but don't mistake your dislike of Jinteki and inability to make them work as proof of their weakness or non-competitiveness. Do so and you're going to find yourself in a fair amount of trouble as the Runner. Respect the Bonsai.

Penfold said:

I would certainly hope not. Otherwise, as the Corp player, you're gonna lose fairly often if you make yourself predictable just based on the identity you choose. Your identity (when playing Corp) should, at worst, not interfere with your overall deck strategy. Even better if it can be of great use, which is why HB's Core identity is so good. It works with basically any strategy (you always need money, and you'll always be installing things), and it doesn't give anything away about your setup or what you plan to do.

This new Jinteki identity has one downside in that regard, in that it's a significant tell about what strategy you are going to employ. Another downside is that it doesn't have any real support from the current cardbase. If you want to make it work well for you, you're going to have to do all the work yourself, and that's a tall order. Protecting your central servers effectively (because you should still protect your deck and hand) while keeping a mean piece of ice on the outside of each server is very hard to do, especially with a Corp that has credit problems.

And no, wall of static won't do the trick. Anything that simply ends the run doesn't force the runner to waste anything but an action, so you would have to do something like Archer, Tollbooth, maybe Neural Katana (though I wouldn't because of Mimic), and if you're feeling lucky, an Enigma or Bioroid of some sort. Heck, the best one in my opinion would be Janus, but good luck getting that thing up and running.

TheRealLeo said:

OK, good point, Wall of Static isn't the best option. But there are plenty of others - Enigma will absolutely cause trouble for the Runner, and any of the trace cards (Hunter, Draco) could be effective depending on link strength. There are also some off-faction cards that would work great, like Matrix Analyzer and Shadow, either by draining Runner resources or building Corp up. All of those are cheap, 3 credits or less, and all add to the cost of running on the central servers to open up the remote servers.

Runix said:

Enigma is only good until the Runner gets their code gate breaker, at which point Enigma is most likely useless. Yog.0 breaks it for free, Gordian Blade can just break the click loss subroutine for 1 credit, ZU.13 and Peacock for 2… and if all they have is Crypsis or Wyrm, you've already won anyway .

As I said above, Hunter's stock is falling, with the need for link cards rising. I don't forsee Hunter being all that painful for the runner in this situation. Same for Draco.

I can see Shadow and Matrix Analyzer being somewhat useful, but not all that painful for the Runner, so if that's what you want, they aren't going to do you too much good.

One card that I do forsee being very useful is that Hourglass that's coming in A Study in Static, but that's still a few months away from release, so not going to help right now.

TheRealLeo said:

As for equal support for both identities, you can only ask so much from 20-card expansions. I can't deny that Jinteki seems weakest of the Corp factions because of their peculiarly specialized play style, but I do think that FFG has done its part in both supporting both the old and the new. I will concede that Jinteki remains hard to play, but it's just a short matter of time before enough cards are released via the monthly data packs to fix any gaps in Jinteki's powers.

TheRealLeo said:

I've addressed the lack of support from the current cardbase for Jinteki's new identity: Jinteki's Core Set ICE is best when layered on top of each other as described in FFG's preview article about the Corp factions; the new identity makes doing that much easier and- more importantly- more effective.

TheRealLeo said:

I think you are going to have a lot of room. If I want to run on HQ I'm going to choose Santiago. If I want a virus deck, I'm going to choose Noise. If I want to protect my remote servers I'm going to choose the new Jinteki ID, if I want to bluff and batter the Runner I'm playing core set Jinteki. If you are tyring to create large forts of ice stopping the Runner and gaining money while I do it then you do not want NBN. And that is why a lot of people suck at NBN and ocmplain that it is bad. They aren't trying to build an NBN deck, they are trying to build a Weyland deck using NBN cards.

Each of these ID's will eventually allow for a number of suites of tactical decisions that will make figuring out what your opponent wants to do next difficult, but the ID will definitely do a really good job of advancing your base strategy and choosing one which does not directly benefit your strategy is going to need to be a very powerful double bluff and I wouldn't expect for that to work very long in casual play and not more than a couple of rounds in tournament play.

Time will tell though.

Messenger said:

Umm… no, it doesn't really allow the Corp to focus on just 3. The most it does is to alleviate the need for strong remote servers by one ice, and that's only if you manage your central servers well. If you don't have the means to do that (you didn't get the ice you needed, or couldn't get your economy going), the runner will only need to waste one action to get to your remote servers. Not very helpful.

And you don't have to have the entire pack devoted to supporting the identity. Just one card would have been nice. Something that allows the Corp player some breathing room in how they install and arrange their ice. That's all.

Messenger said:

If something is unstoppable or unassailable, it is usually termed "broken". That's not something you want for a game.

And like I said, your ice arrangement will only be slightly more effective, and certainly not easier. All it takes is a Parasite or two to throw a double-wrench in your machine, where normally it would have just been one, and this doesn't even take into consideration the fact that the new identity doesn't help to protect your central servers any more than the original. You still have to take care to keep a criminal out of your HQ, an anarch out of your R&D and discard, and a Shaper out of R&D, along with whatever other sensitive areas you need to protect. Your central servers will still be there. They will still be of value to the Runner to attack. And you still can't spread yourself too thin on your remotes.

Penfold said:

For the record, I did specify Corp player, not Runner. Runner is a different ballgame in terms of ID selection.

That said, if I'm playing a virus deck, Noise certainly would be useful, but so could Kate, since all the viruses are programs. She could give me a discount on the ones I decide to run, along with my Akamatsu Mem Chips that allow me to run a few extra. And most Corp players aren't going to expect a Shaper to start running Imps and rampage through HQ, so the surprise could certainly work to my advantage.

I built a Shaper deck that ran 3 copies of Bank Job, because most Corp players weren't as concerned with a Shaper having too easy access to a PAD Campaign or two, so getting an easy 8 credits seemed like a pretty good deal. That deck did pretty well for me.

Not to mention, I can't count the number of times that a Weyland identity has got Runners automatically thinking tag-n-bag. What happens if I decide to run Aggressive Secretaries and play them off as Posted Bounties? If the Runner doesn't have their Decoy or Carapace out, they may think they've got to steal my Bounty before I get the kill cards in my hand, so they blindly run at it, and instead lose their rig, while I just coast to an agenda victory.

I have played NBN successfully before, and not even bothered with all that much tracing. In fact, I didn't even use SEA Source. If I were to "maximize" my identity's ability, I would likely have been easily wrecked by any Shaper Runners that I faced, as the link strength would have just killed me.

That's what I mean by you shouldn't be predictable. Your opponent shouldn't be able to see your identity and automatically know that strategy x is what you will do, as opposed to strategy y, z, g, r, or even q. This especially applies to the Corp side, since the Corp is all about hidden information, surprise, and bluffing. If the Runner knows what strategy you are playing, they will know how to "handle" you, and you will likely lose. If you throw something unexpected their way, sometimes the surprise can be a game changer, and can win you the game.

TheRealLeo said:

As for your second paragraph, that's what Jinteki: Replicating Perfection does.

TheRealLeo said:

Or, for that matter, we can also posit the speedy Criminal runner who gets through early defenses without resistance- or even the possibility of the Corp getting an awful mulligan, being vulnerable to being plundered for most of the early game and losing quickly because the Runner luckily got 3 agendas. It happens a lot but- again- neither WotC nor FFg consider it broken.

In short, unstoppable and unassasilable does happen in Netrunner and yet this is still one of the best designed- and now best updated- card games around.

As far as knowing what your opponent's first move has to be in order to hit you is concerned, the new identity does make ice arrangement eaiser.

Parasite takes time to grow and destroys itself when its host is trashed. A Corp player is simply not going to waste his time letting it do its thing and ultimately put a dent in his defenses. Or, for that matter, he can choose to "waste his time" to keep the things at bay with a purge.

Attacking central servers is a crap shoot. Like the rest of the game, it's a matter of gambling on the things you want actually being there. Without a Demolition Run, The Maker's Eye or Backdoor Beta, a Runner attacking R&D is metaphorically hitting a brick wall if they don't snag an agenda; even with those cards, you're still at mercy of Lady Luck reaping your rewards for you. Same for running on HQ especially where it's possible to access the same card over and over and over; and even HQ-based cards with sure rewards like Account Siphon come with stiff penalties. Archives would be your best bet but a Corp player is not going to be foolish enough to leave it unprotected for long, especially against an Anarch.

Don't get me wrong- I've won games by attacking central servers. I'm not ungrateful for those wins but they were lucky and I'm not proud.

And speaking of which, you're positing that the Runner decides to go through with the rest of the central server run. This brings us back to our other argument about fortifying Jinteki central servers- that would mean playing further into the machinations of the Jinteki player, adding more and more risk and peril to his assault.

At the very least, I see this new identity as letting Jinteki get an extra use out of its central server ice, whether just outermost or the entire line. Making the most out of your resources is useful and powerful. In Magic: the Gathering, you can see it in various examples of the concept of card advantage . I'm both not surprised and glad to see such here.