I have been using my Firespray quite a bit in games against some friends. It isn't as bad as you are making it out to seem. Who cares if only two pilots have elite upgrades for them on it. It almost sounds like you think that ships need the elite upgrade on them to be any good. Additionally it also sounds like you are fully decking out a Firespray, which should be a no go. Kaith's ability is like Steele's, a bit to situational. Boba's is really good if you think about it. I have used it quite a few times to my advantage. Then Krassis' is pretty useful, ecspecially with the heavy laser cannon. Lets look at your points in order:

1) Sounds like you just need to do like everyone else who will/has and relearn how to manuever the larger based ships. The base is a hair over 3"x3" in size. All I can tell you on that is just to practice with it and get used to the new size.

2) I don't see expert handling as a must. I have settled on using the Bounty Hunter pilot quite a bit lately and haven't had much issue with needing specific elite upgrades on the pilots that can use them. In fact most of the time I run them with out one for points available for other ships.

3) Really don't need two actions for any ship to make them count. Only one pilot I can think of that has two actions is Vader. I have never used Squad Leader, as have other people I have played with and they all seem to do fine with only one action. Again sounds like you need to practice more. As for gunner, that is up to people individually if they like it for not. A second chance to make a hit is pretty decent.

4) There is a reason that the YT gets Nien, have seen its one agility dice? The Firespray has more going for it, it is after all an X-Wing on steroids.

5) Your opinion, not really needed for this ship, all that would be doing with a 1 90 turn would be basically pivoting the ship. There is a balance even in the maneuver dials.

6) Well if you are deploying a seismic mine after moving with squad leader I hope that you are also adding that damage to all your ships in range of it too. After all it says all ships in range 1 of the mine take one damage. Proximity mines are fun to deploy, its nice to take a movement area away from an opponent. And if a rebel player wants to fly a Y-Wing over it, that is great news. Means that it will take less time to kill it in the future depending on the damage rolls.

7) Ion because there are certain advantages to it. At range 3 with the Ion Cannon there is no +1 agility die for the defender, also you can set up a collision with an asteroid next turn, taking away their action and attack, or they might go through one and also lose their action. It gives some utility to the Imperial fleets people can make.

8) Sure most opponents will target it first. That is actually a good thing. Means that I can use the other ships to lay some pain on them. I have done some scary set ups where if the opponents would have worried about my smaller ships first they would have been better off. It makes such a good distraction from the other ships its not even funny.

9) There was no astromechs or Chewbacca for any of the other Imperial ships. Criticals can hurt any ship. So I have no idea why you are complaining about this. Almost sounding like you wanted a God Ship that could lay everything to waste with little to no effort.

10) I can see a point of still using missles. Again it comes down to how you want to spend your points. Remember the Heavy Laser Cannon cannot due critial hits.

11) This point is all personal opinion of yours. I have had immense success with the Firespray taking the complete attention of my opponent. I have had Howlrunner, Backstabber, etc completely ignored in games with the Firespray on the table. Even in ones where we wanted to field 150 and 200 points.

Again it sounds like you really need to practice more with the lare based ships, think in terms of the metagame. Also you sound like you were expecting the large based ships to be God ships.

two great write ups.. thanks so much for the insight.

Duraham said:

well….

- both mines are triggered differently. with the proximity, at the very least i could do the collision trick to aim it accurately, but for the seismic, you'd really need to go last to get it in properly. by right, this should work against swarms since they should be moving first and all, but it does mean that you would find it harder to capture higher skilled guys within the blast. If anything, you should note that the seismic mine is actually "larger" in terms of AOE when compared to the proximity, due to it's range 1 blast radius. quite different uses, but either way i really find the mines to be very impractical. at the very least, for the proximity, i could drop it on someone AND pelt him with my guns nearly immediately, so it feels more "confirmed" in terms of damage dealt against a specific ship. Also, seismic charges can and do hurt your own ship, so if you are also bringing an entourage of stuff along with your firespray, sometimes you really need to take that 1 hit to your friendly ship so you cna hit 3 others, and when that one ship is a darth vader or howlrunner or phennr, OUCH!

- I use expose on the Falcon actually, screw the 1 agility dice when i can pelt you with 5 dices + 360deg firing arc + maybe han solo.

-yes, you could run them without expert handling or any upgrades whatsoever, but when the roll helps it to this kind of extent, i really don't see why not. Also, it changes their ability to fight under constrained situations a lot, without the roll i'm always hard-pressed to run away and come back again, but with my lack of side firing arcs, and also a very obvious show of when i would want to do that because there's only so many ways i could move, out of which only so little ways would be actually useful, and that's without considering additional things like how close you are to the map edges, obstacles and other ships (or heck, even your own proximity mine from earlier), and for most maneuvers with the Firespray, it really does screw over to the next turn, ie. running away still means you need to turn around, and if your opponent manages to predict when and where you are running to, it is also easy to catch you (and that is not hard at all), and koiograns are really risky if you are flying one of the higher skilled pilots due to its size.

-yes, you can ion people into asteroids, park stuff in front of them and make them lose actions, ion them off the map too, or you could blast at them away dealing them 2-3 damage. I dunno, if he has 2-3 hp anyways and the Firespray is like, well, um…. i dunno, has like torps missiles lasers capable of wiping him off immediately, especially when he only has 1-2 agility….

cynicism aside, i agree that ionizing targets is still useful, but i also found myself missing more elusive targets with the ions, then having to pelt him with gunner instead. And giving it ion cannons means that it is not dishing out the firepower it should be dishing out, so you really are trading that for a little bit of utility, which you need to get the target within your front firing arc anyways. The reason why the ion cannon was so good on the Ywing, according to me, is that not only is it 360, it is also 3 attack dice compared to the Ywing's 2attack blasters, and even at range 1 you are likely to be dealing only 1 damage to the target anyway, so most of the time, why not just ionize the target instead? Now, compare that to the Firespray, with a base attack of 3, or heavy laser turret for 4 attacks against no bonuses agility dices due to range, or even its other ordnance like torps etc, i really do see myself blasting away instead of trying to ionize the target, especially when after ionizing him i'm going to blast him away anyway. Like why would you want to go thru so many steps at eliminating him when you could eliminate him straight away. it is so much more efficient and humane. that said, ions are still a tad more useful against other imp ships, since you could setup a proper kill and bural, but with only 1 turn to do that, nevermind whatever roll or boost or both actions that they could take, I'd say spare yourself the trouble and blast them instead, they only have 3 hp (+1 shield if they have upgrades, +another 2 if it's a TIEadv)

- i'm not expecting the Firespray to be some god ship, but if it costs me 2-3 ships, im irritated it cannot do the job of 2-3 ships, and if the Falcon can do it, i see no reasons why the Firespray isnt able to do it either. Even if I were to really lower my standards and compare an empty firespray to a slightly pimped out maaaaaaarek (closest in terms of points and general uselessness), the maaaaaaaaarek would be in general a marginally more dangerous threat and be more useful too, with or without any additional supports given to it. Neither is it an Xwing, since it could do much tighter turns (due to its size) and is really a whole different ship altogether with different roles, in a different team to boot. On paper, it shares many similiar properties, ie. flying arcs, ship stats, capability for upgrades and additional torps etc, but in practice, they are different, mostly due to its maneuvering and size, and also them belonging in different teams, where they have to serve different roles due to the nature of the team.

- 2 actions on any ship is awesome. have you tried a normal attack + target lock + focus? yes, you do not need 2 actions on them to make them count, but ever wondered what all the hype is about for Vader, or Phennr or Fel or Celchu on pushthelimit, or Lando, or losing actions from collision or stress even. it drastically reduces the element of luck and dice roll, like say the aforementioned targetlock+focus, or focus+evade, and that's like the most basic of combos/reasons behind why having 2 actions is so useful. On the Firespray, your ship has so much potential, why would you want to waste it? No, i'm not saying dump 70 points on it and send it out, but I'm saying even at the barest of minimum (ie. totally empty bounty hunter), making it do things like targetlock + focus or focus +evade would make it a lot stronger of a ship, and that argument can be extended to nearly every other ship in the game so far. Also, with such a high firepower and likelihood to get hit, why would you not want to do either of the things, instead relying on luck of the roll to get you through?

- i dunno, for all the "please go and practice", i'd say "please try using it under tournament rules against competent opponents", it's not very helpful, and it's really insulting, like you are accusing me of not knowing my stuff. if you could share tips like how you fly it, eg. "you should bear in mind that due to it's size, you need to add a forward1 to all your estimations of it's maneuvers", that would be a lot more useful instead of "go run a few more laps". I also realize that Im doing a lot of forwards + koiograns with it lately, mostly to minimize the problems it has with it's lack of side firing arcs, but I do not think that's the right way to fly it, nor any other ship for that matter. like Im really putting it in the middle of the map, forward 2, forward 2, forward 2, koiogran, forward 2 forward 2 forward 2, koiogran, forward2 forward 2……. flying it around like it's a normal Xwing or some other ship is when all the issues and problems start appearing.

EDIT: I think the difference really is in the metagame. over here, head-on fights occurs like nearly all the time, and it quickly escalates into tight dogfights and melee that clumps together. So far, i'm easily dealing with it by setting up a killzone surrounding the fight, then taking out ships one by one (as per standard operating procedures), but that's squad based. on a more intimate level of fighting (ie. 2v3 or lesser), the firespray really has problems and is taken out so quickly im more of stunned than anything else actually. Throw the Falcon in the exact same situation, and like I'd say, I'd expose and pelt everybody i don't like with 5 dices at range 1 and you'd see the Falcon emerge victorious, although badly brused, like a Rocky.

hmm, guess I do need to cut down on the ornaments. So far I usually have gunner, heavy laser, expert handling on it, barring occasional seasonal builds. I may be tempted to put in a mine just to see what else i could do with it, but that's about it. tried putting ship upgrades on it, but apart from boost, they aren't particularly useful in general

1) I forgott to meantion that the only time you can deploy the seismic charge is when you reveal the manuever dial. So I have no idea how you are actually using Squad Leader to drop it later on. Once more Proximity Mine is used to take away an avenue of approach on the board. Again this is all metagame thinking on that one.

2) I have no idea why you are meantioning the YT-1300 in this. But Expose + YT = a ship that is going to take a lot of punishment that round. Seen my buddy try that and it did him no good.

3) Once more I will point out maybe you need to practice with the larger based ships. I haven't had that much of an issue. That rear firing arc helps out tremendously. Also the bigger firing arcs make for more available targets for you to choose from. Here you also hint at the metagame with the opponent predicting where you may be going. Maybe you should try to predict where they are headed and work around that.

4) I am sorry you are not fully seeing the usefulness of the Ion cannon on the Firespray. Put it simply control can be greater then raw damage at times.

5) This point is utter bs on your part. Earlier you talk about how you would field a YT-1300 with Han using Expose. That right there is 50 points of your 100 total. That is before you add anything else to the YT-1300. A bare bones Firespray is more useful than Steele. Lets look at the basic Bounty Hunter at 33 points to field. Steele is 27 points to field. The most you could get is two additional ships being bare boned for that price, or else just one extra ship with an upgrade or two. As for the turn size due to base size, you are comparing apples to oranges. It is almost like saying that you expect a Semi pulling a trailer to be able to have the same handling as a car built for rally/drifting.

6) Yes I have tried that. Target lock lets you reroll some to all dice, but you still have the same chance on it as you did when you initially rolled. Focus gives you a 75% chance to hit. There is an inherently higher chance of successfully hitting on an attack then dodging an attack. Remember you argument was that ships need to be able to do two actions in order to be useful. That point has been shot down by lots of people who can make due with only one action on a ship. In fact I have seen emprie builds that don't even use Vader that have done really well in the past. Let me put it this way to you, those combos can also be for naught. No matter what you are relying on a random mechanic being the dice.

Again it does sound like you wanted a god ship. The Firespray along with the interceptors are bringing some heavy hitting ships for the Imperial side. If you do not like the ship do not buy it or play it. The solution is as easy as that. You could probably get the best players in the world telling you how awesome the Firespray could be and what you can do with it, but you will refuse to see it. Mainly because you want a large ship that can lay waste to things. Maybe they will give you your super large ship in the future. But from my standpoint you don't seem to really grasp game balance. Sorry if I am coming across as rude. But you sound like the kid that lives next door to me who expects to have everything be a certain way and it not happy if something is not up to the image that he created in his mind.

well, how are you using your Firespray then? we are currently going around in circles on points i've raised, and it's evident we are going nowhere with that, except getting more angry at each other. i could dredge up more stuff to rebute your points that i completely disagree with (eg. 3 regular TIEs = 36 points < boba fett or kath scarlet or Krassis, or comparing falcon with firespray since both are the only ships in that category so far, or 2 actions = good etc, or

i'm here mainly because I have this image of how the Firespray might play out, tried it, and it totally didn't work out, and i'm trying to find what is the proper image for it, since mine is definitely inaccurate.

It seems to me (albeit with no practical experience) that the Firespray (and to a greater extent the Mil Fac) should be used to strafe edges of furballs at range 2-3 rather than actually go through them. I envision that using Boba and a heavy laser cannon would be quite effective in picking off stragglers. You keep moving 3-4 every turn making soft turns (with Boba's ability to switch directions on the fly and the boost action from engine upgrades to further tweak movement after placing the dial) around the fights your fighter escort engage occasionally engaging those that come after you with the rear arc fire. If they simply come after you and ignore the lesser ships, you barrel past with the exaggerated boost movement action. Anyone tried this with any good effect? The mil falc on the other hand feels in theory to be more of a strafer, going straight through enemy fighters doing korrigan flips as needed with nien nub negating the stress tokens the next turn.

Can someone with the bigger ships check to see how far a forward 4 followed by a forward boost action with a falcon actually moves you compared to a smaller ship? For instance, if you start with the front of the base of a falcon lined up exactly with an x-wing's base front.. what would the x-wing have to move (in multiple moves obviously) to stay level with the falcon that did a forward 4 followed by a boost 1 forward? I'm guessing due to the added base size that the x-wing would have to do an additional 3 or 4forward mo ve to keep up on top of normal movement forward 4.

1 combo i have seen work exceptionally well is fett with push the limit. The utility of those 2 is disgusting, add the engine upgrade and you have a very fast moving ship with a hell of a lot of firepower.

Personally id use the firespray to close to range 3 and in turn one unleash missiles or ion cannons then pick off the target with your fasterr stuff if for some reason its not dead. Doing that you make it a target, something your opponent has to deal with, because using push the limit and the boost icon you can always maneuver the ship so that it has something in either of its fire arcs. If for some reason your opponent decides to ignore the firespray then great, you just ion something and then use smaller ships to pick it off. Rinse repeat. If they go for the fire spray awesome, use a pair of tie ints to lay pain from the rear arcs.

I play a lot of wargames and its a very common basic psychology tactic to make the big thing appear to be the most threat, because it causes your opponent to throw everything at it. I use it in 40k a lot, its won my tournements, i have no doubt it'll work in xwing with the bigger ships too

Heres a squad i came up with using fett and the ability to get multiple free actions in a turn.

consider this. the base itself is 2x2. on a normal ship, say a TIE/ln, a forward 5 will bring you 6 units ahead (a forward 0 would be "1unit" because you are also counting the ship itself in its new position, from the head of its previous position). with boost, that's a +2 = 8units

on a Falcon, a forward 4 will bring you 6 units ahead, then a boost will bring you another 3 units ahead = 9 units.

deviant-dj said:

so i should be going more for a hit and run approach? charge straight in, deliver a present, maybe drop a mine, then get out as far and fast as possible, turn around and repeat? interesting.

I wouldnt use the mines, the above list is 100 dead, and given the movement capability of the combo ive listed you can do either. Personally id hit and run

Duraham said:

But it turns out that it's not a faction balance problem, or a problem with the X-wing. The problem is that people (definitely including me) were loading upgrades on Rebel ships far past the point of diminishing returns, and were getting torn up by Imperial builds with one or two flashy pilots and a whole lot of cheap muscle.

Now you're talking about a ship that's worth 55 or 60 points, and wondering why it doesn't last long enough to justify its cost--and you're completely right, but it's because I think you're loading the ship way past its sweet spot.

Try a list with the Bounty Hunter at 33 points, or maybe with Krassis + Heavy Laser Cannon at 42. As far as maneuvering goes, think of fighters as cavalry units and the Firespray as an artillery piece: your artillery might advance, but it's poorly suited to fast passes and slashing attacks. Good luck!

Vorpal Sword said:

This is spot on…it is very similar to the x-wing except the X-wing has mostly Ties fshooting at it with only 2 attacks. The Fire spray a has X-wings shooting at it with at least 3 attacks and it only has 2 defense so those extra HP only last so long expecially if the Rebel Player is using Wedge who will target the Firespray right away if he is smart and close the range. If not using stealth (which has yet to work for me due to poor roles) the firespray is defending with 1 die against 3-4 depening on range.

I learned to have a couple of ties out front to block the incoming rebels and try to stay at range, but it can be difficult especially with obstacles and running into ships. The couple of times I have persevered the firespray was down to 1-2 HP each time.

I managed to try out the list i put up in the this thread, while it was a steep learning curve using the firespray the maneuverability that push the limit on fett has was truely terrifying. Most of the time i was able to get something in at least one of my fire arcs while using the tie ints to harrass and take out anything that the firespray couldnt fire at.

Krassis Trelix with a Heavy Laser Cannon at 43 points seems to be the way to go. Take her and then use the other 57 points to bring a whole lot of basic TIEs with one scary one to draw aggro.

The Firespray-31 with this setup rolls 4 dice at all ranges. Range 2-3? Use the Heavy Laser Cannon. Range 1? Open up with primary weapons for 4 dice.

Trelix with the Heavy Laser Cannon single-handedly allows the Empire to fight at long range and forces the opponent to try to close the gap (directly into your TIEs which fight best at Range 1) to shut down the Firespray-31.

Seriously, try it out. It is (relatively) cheap and super effective.

SonicPara said:

I've been thinking along the same lines.

I'm thinking of this:

Krassis + Heavy Laser Cannon

Howlrunner

Academy Pilot x3

97/100 Points.

I could also give Howlrunner a Stealth Mod to make the list 100. Not sure if my luck can make the extra agility work though.

Either way I plan on testing both out.

I didn't win a Firespray, but for what it's worth, in the Championship round of my club's KRT (using the stock lists), the Imp side handily defeated the Rebel side and both players were good players, so I really don't think it's the ship- the Champ lost one TIE/ In while tabling the Rebel side.

As others have mentioned, try some different builds, take some different approaches to upgrades. You'll figure it out. It seems that including a ship like the Falcon or Slave I isn't an auto-win by any stretch, but by the same token, it isn't an auto-lose either. This game is fairly unlike any other minis game I've played in that there don't seem to be any units that are vastly under or overcosted. The balance and diversity between the Rebels and the Empire is nothing short of genius in my opinion.

Also, as you've yourself noted OP, the ship moves very differently than the models you're used to moving. It's going to take a little time to adjust to that, but as I think most everyone would agree, the most important skill in this game is movement/ manuevering. It sounds as though you're still adjusting to that with this new ship. Give it some time, take your losses, and adjust accordingly bearing in mind what works for the internet may not be what works for you and your particular play style.

Good luck!

Cid_MCDP said:

One trick to get acclimated with the Slave 1/Millenium Falcon is that their base is equal to a straight-2 maneuver in size as opposed to the small bases we have had which are equal to a straight-1. This means that, when using the Slave 1/Millenium Falcon, your ship will always move the same as a small ship performing the same maneuver followed up with a straight boost. The greater width of the new medium bases takes time to learn but the forward movement is simple to predict and understand if you break the game down and think in terms of the small-based ships we already have.

This trick also works for maintaining a formation during gameplay. Want your Falcon or Slave 1 to anchor your force? Move your small ships +1 speed greater than the medium ship and they will hold to formation (turns are a bit tricky as always though); a TIE moving straight-2 and a Firespray-31 moving straight-1 will end in formation if they started in formation.

TIE: Move (2) + Base (1) = 3 forward

Firespray-31: Move (1) + Base (2) = 3 forward

As for tactics, I recommend using the Slave 1 to be a long-range, damage support for your daredevil TIE pilots. The Slave 1 has some beef but its health is less durable than a Rebel tank because it has X-wings with 3/4 dice shooting it instead of TIEs with 2/3 dice. This is why Krassis Trelix with the Heavy Laser Cannon is such a good option. Also, if you want to make use of mines, do yourself a favor and take Boba Fett. Leave the Heavy Laser Cannon at home, take Expose and some mines, and use your surprising speed and pilot ability to fly through the furball, drop a mine, then open up with your rear arc and expose for 5 range 1 dice.

SonicPara said:

Two big problems with your proposed scenario. You don't first off get extra dice at range brackets either for defense or attack with heavy lasers since they're a secondary weapon. Second, I believe that someone posted the rules for slave 1 and they mentioned something about one primary weapons shooting out the back.

I'm aware of the additional dice rules not applying to secondary weapons (this is one reason why the Heavy Laser Cannon is so great at Range 3!) as well as the Slave 1 only being able to fire primary weapons behind itself.

I was suggesting using Boba Fett and, instead of taking the popular Heavy Laser Cannon, spending the same amount of points to take a Proximity Mine and Expose and using the Slave 1's unexpected speed and ability to attack behind itself with primary weapons to set up devastating mine drops and huge 5-dice volleys. This tactic works especially well on Boba Fett because the close-quarters nature of the tactic can take advantage of his pilot ability, ensuring that you can simultaneously avoid the firing arc of smaller ships while setting up a devastating volley of fire with Expose.

The above use of Slave 1 would look like this:

Boba Fett - 39 points

Expose - 4 points (Or take a Gunner copilot instead - 5 points)

Proximity Mine - 3 points

Total- 46 points (47 points with Gunner instead of Expose)

My favorite build for a long-range support Slave 1 so far is as follows:

Krassis Trelix - 36 points

Heavy Laser Cannon - 7 points

Total - 43 points

I haven't tried the Bounty Hunter yet though it seems like, since he doesn't have a pilot ability to take advantage of, he may be best suited as a cheaper version of the long-range Krassis Trelix build.

As for Kath Scarlet, the following is the only build I have come up with for her and I really question its efficiency:

Kath Scarlet - 38 points

Mercenary Copilot - 2 points (Or Gunner - 5 points)

Total - 40 points (43 points with Gunner instead of Merc Copilot)

The idea here is to proc her stress-inducing pilot ability either through assured critical results only at range 3 OR through luck-based critical results at all ranges but the possibilty to have two attempts per turn. Note, the fun part of the Gunner upgrade is that it is entirely possible to proc her pilot ability twice in one turn. Since it applies stress when a critical result is cancelled (through evade or successful agility rolls) it is possible for an opponent to completely avoid an attack that had a critical result, suffer stress, and then have Kath Scarlet fire again with Gunner because her attack technically missed. This is the absolute best case scenario though so I can't help but doubt its viability; just gotta suck it up and try it for a few games I guess.

The Slave 1 (and Millenium Falcon) seem to me to be classic point sinks that can absolutely cripple your force if you load too many points on them; a delicate balance needs to be achieved through concise upgrade decisions. It is still FAR too early to have everything figured out but it really seems like these bigger ships need to be kept on the less-expensive side in order to work well as a part of a force.

Now, I haven't played too many games with my Firespray (I am avoiding fielding and raving about the new models/cards since they are not yet legal in official play), but I have had couple friendlies and two KRT grand finals piloting one.

Several posters have already mentioned what I find to be the best option for the Firespray: Krassis + Heavy Laser Cannon. This build should be used to hang out at range 2-3 (pref 3) and blast priority targets with the HLC. You should field other fighters that are good at close ranged dog-fighting (high maneuverability and/or high damage at range 1). From there, your opponent's strategy should dictate how you maneuver your own forces. If they are going to focus down your firespray, then make it a hard target by running (and shooting with the rear primary), evading, hiding behind asteroids, etc. Meanwhile, your other 2-4 fighters, which are being ignored, focus down priority targets. If they ignore the Firespray, then do your thing with the smaller fighters and blast away at range with Krassis. Very basic rundown of how I would run Krassis + HLC.

I feel like the Bounty Hunter is a fair card. Without card text, and being relatively cheap, there are a number of different ways you can kit it out and therefor strategies to take advantage of.

I have not had the chance to field Boba Fett yet, but I greatly look forward to seeing just how good he is. I am of the school that maneuver is absolutely the most important aspect of this game, and his text is a direct benefit to that.

I am not a fan of Kath at all. I find her ability to not be nearly as useful as Fett's or Krassis', and she is only 1 point less than Fett with one less pilot skill. 7 Is an odd place to be with pilot skill. It is not enough to go before the elite pilots that people are fielding, and is way more than enough to go before the cheap units (rookie and academy pilots). I am not intending to just label her 'worthless' and call it a day, but right now I see her as the least effective of the 4.

My background starting to play X-wing was a 3-Rebel build (that's all you can field at 100 points if you buy one of everyting + the core set), and I feel that background really helped in the transition to a 3-4-Imperial build (with Krassis); as opposed to transitioning to it from a 6-8-Imperial build that I see most often from pre-wave 1 Imperials. There is just an inherently different strategy to deployment and maneuver when you have so many cheap ships, versus very few powerful ones. 3-ship lists are unforgiving, and a poor maneuver phase on just about any turn can put you into a hole you cannot climb out of. I am not saying maneuver isn't important or difficult for swarm lists, but it is different, and losing one ship isn't a game changer (unless that 1 ship is Howlrunner). Maneuver with swarm lists is more about maintaining formation (no, you didn't bump your ship with the template; it is simply a fact that you cannot move your little square formation all at the same bank speed, and not run into eachother) and overlapping fields of fire. So, realize that not all gamers are created equal, and not all equal gamers are created equal. That is to say, if a friend and I consistantly have fairly equal tournament results, maybe our results would not be equal with eachother's lists. Maybe he can take my 3-Rebel list and do just as well, but I just cannot wrap my head around his 6-Imperial list. Being good at a game like this is just as much figuring out your strengths and playing to them, as it is figuring out a list's strengths and playing to them.