Honostaly untill you hit the Ascended ranks where the big "I" is picking up all your Ammo Costs who can afford the Ammo Prices (except mid ranked or higher Nobles, who still have to fire spairingly) I've found a simple way to side step the ongoing prohibitive cost of feading a Bolt Gun or Bolt Pistol

Bolt Pistol alternitive, Best Quality Hand Canon (650 Thrones) preferabaly a Carnodon (2000 Thrones) shure the intital outlay is higher but compare Ammo Costs 18 Thrones each for a Bolt Shell to 5 thrones for a pack of 6 Manstopers, Same Damage and better Pen and slightily better range at much lower cost all your giving up is the over kill type "E" damage for type "I"

Bolt Gun Alternitive, try a Best Quality Armogedon (1000 Thrones) loaded with Manstopers, suere you give up some Pen comparativaly and Damage is "I" not ""E" but you get a Full Auto option and slightiy better range and you can always fork over extra cash for the extended clip option.

Start-up Chost is higher but a normal hand canon will have paied for it's self in the first adventuere and an Armogedon within 2-3 and 3-5 for a Carnodon if your buying your own ammo (and if you don't need the Pen you can always use normal ammo) and it's an easer (Fel) roll to get your boss to cover the cost for a box of Manstopers than for a clip of Bolt shells.

now don't tell my GM or my Players, let's just keep it betwen you and me.

Bolt Pistol Dam. 1D10+5 vs. Carnodon Dam. 1D10+4 = Bolt Pistol better

Bolt Pistol Pen 4 vs. Carnodon 2 (Man-stopper 3) - see errata = Bolt Pistol better

Bolt Pistol Tearing vs. Carnodon Accurate = Bolt Pistol better

Bolt Pistol damage type "X" vs. Carnodon damage type "I" = Bolt Pistol better

Hand cannons (including Carnodon) are -10 to hit if used one-handed (below SB 4) = Bolt Pistol better

Bolt Gun Dam. 1D10+5 vs. Armageddon Dam. 1D10+4 = Bolt Gun better

Bolt Gun Pen 4 vs. Armageddon 0 (Man-stopper 3) - see errata = Bolt Gun better

Bolt Gun Tearing vs. Armageddon Full-Auto choice = about equal

Bolt Gun damage type "X" vs. Armageddon damage type "I" = Bolt Gun better

About all my players (Rank 6-7) wield Bolt Pistols with Red-dot to kill most mundane adversaries with a single aimed shot. Except the Guardsmen, who wields a Plasma Pistol by now…

Bolt gun loaded with inferno shells = absolute OP

Angelus + hyper density penetrators = one shot most of enemies

Storm bolter - this thing is killing machine

Psycannon rounds = insta death to psykers

And now absolute most devastating killing thing

two forearm mounted storm bolters fired as dual shot loaded with psycannons or inferno shells or HD penetrators = zilion damage in one shot

Of and for bolt pistols choose mauler (reliable + S/3/-) or sacristian bolter 1d10+6 X - every point of dmg counts.

In addition to Luthor Harkon 's numbers, there is the fact that the Errata added Tearing to bolt weapons, making them pretty much the Grand Poobah of 'basic' weapons.

-But Drop Bear still has a valid point: if you can't afford a steady supply of bolt ammo, there are some alternatives that are nearly as good.

and sometime there is the other point, when undercover Bolt Weapons stands out and a slug thrower won't

Also if you go for "Best" quality you get the WS Bonous and the +1 Damage, also if you start to use Bolt weapons the GM will start using enimes that can stand up to them, that means you need either Stormtrooper Carapace or Power Armor to survive their attacks.

this is a good way to sneek a power up past the GM, without costing yourself the stars.

Amaimon said:

Although I get the sarcasm, you can only forearm mount pistols as far as I remember… Bolters are great but expensive and ammo is hard to come by, except when compared to Plasma or Melta… And I find pistols to be always underpowered at endgame, nothing really goes past 1d10 except for again Melta or maybe Plasma…

Back to the topic, depends on what you want… For melee combat if you have no weapon skill, a melta pistol is probably the best choice… For sniper single shots, you are probably better off with a Long Las and Hot shot charges, or something like that… Now if you are going full auto and, then a heavy weapon like a Heavy Stubber or Assault Cannon if your GM is crazy enough to allow it. If he is not which is what I would expect, and you have a lot of money to waste on ammo, then that Storm Bolter is probably a good choice.

rafaelmb said:

Neither can you use Dual Shot with auto-fire, and Storm weapons only work with Full Auto. But I do appreciate the odd Munchkin excersise in Gross OverPoweredness

Drop Bear said:

"Best" quality only offers the WS Bonus and the +1 Damage to Meele Weapons, "Best" quality Ranged Weapons instead won't jam anymore.

And if you fight with sticks and stones the GM might use only Rabbits and Squirrels as enemies, but where is the fun?

Ohh snap! I didn't really looked much into it. As for strom i probably used version of this quality used in later systems such as BC or OW. About mounting more than pistols, I guess I had the image of grey knights with strom bolters on their forearms Yeah I agree its munchinnes, but how coool would your character look? With bands of ammo from his arms to his backpack Probably it would weight a ton, but with power armour, you could manage it

Hey, you still can fire two strom bolters with recoil gloves or pistol grips.

If we're talking about cost/effectiveness, the best weapons in this game are in my opinion:

- hack shotgun - at point blank it kill almost everyone with its one shot, get some inferno shells for extra OP flame effect

- two hand flamers + cleanse & purify - I know why this talent was removed from later versions of the game

- vanaheim - full auto + scatter = dense atmosphere

- armageddon - as said above

- simple long las or hunting rifle - the accurate quality damage bonus is too good to be forgotten

Heavy stubber is piece of ****. I dont understand this weapon. Lets compare it to armageddon.

Arma vs heavy stubber

Range 100m vs 120m - minimun insignificant difference

RoF S/2/6 vs -/-/10 - armageddon has more versability, 10 round full burst is not needed, you rarely hit more than 6

Dam 1d10+4 Pen 0 vs 1d10+4 Pen 3 - same damage, more pen for heavy stubber, difference can be easily negated by man stopper bullets which are cheap (it annoys me so much, that those stupid people that made campaigns to DH namely apostasy gambit, didn't read the errata; enemies have heavy stubbers with ManStR, that have 6 Pen, morons (or form haarlock legacy inquisitors herrod lathe mono blades))

Clip 15 vs 20 = 2 FA + SA burst vs 20 FA burst - clear heavy stubber win, as expected for HMG which it supposedly is; solution - fire selector

Rld Full vs 2 Full - armageddon win

Qualities - reliable vs -

Weght 8,5 kg vs 35 kg - armageddon is heavy gun, but heavy stubber is 4 times heavier. Total weight of arma with FS is 9

Cost 100 vs 750 - this is the biggest bull. 750 for what? I dont get it. Total cost of armageddon with FS and 3 clips of MS is 179

Heavy stubber is used for two reasons , virtually no need to reload in combat, and for the shots. With good BS and stacking bonuses, it is not so unusual to get 8 shots or so…

By the way, why do you like shotguns so much? In the games I have seen, anyone who moves to point blank range either gets charged or shot first… Course they are useful when you are in melee and have no WS at all, but without the point blank bonus it would still be as good as Flamer, worse than a Melta… just for melee, even a duelling Las or the Bolter as you won't be spending as much ammo should do the trick.

One shot weapons are one shot and can easily be dodged easily. Shotguns on point blank offer large number of hits, and high chance of hitting, plus ammo versability.

In hth they still can inflict multiple hits. If you have acrobatics, you can disengage as half action and then shot someone in the face. Or just walk away, risk taking the hit (40something%) and then shot someone in the face. Im talking about hack shotguns or pistol shotguns of course. Hack shotguns are better because of the bigger chance for righteous fury. Trust me, I killed bloodletters with these.

Without bonus you can hardly get two hits, three is really unlikely. Acrobatics with some agility is a completely different story, very specific build, but you could shoot with barely anything for the same effect.I still believe letting yourself get charged and letting the enemy get a free attack at you is a bad idea, for anything that could actually hurt you…I'd easily stick to the bolt weapons just to keep some distance and avoid giving those free charges and attacks from disengage to the enemy, though I usually take care to make my PCs and NPCs at least not useless in melee.

One of the selling points of dark heresy is that you can get killed at every attack.

Dude were talking about weapon you use, when you can't afford using boltguns, or don't have weapon training to use them, or as a backup weapons. Of course blotguns are better at every aspect.

Yes, and that is what the topic is about, bolt guns versus other weapons. I was just trying to understand why people say shotguns are at the same level, as they are only good at point blank range, and I have a hard time understanding how people consider getting to that range so easy, unless you have good agility and dodge/acrobatics to escape all the attacks. For most other chars, I see that as signing their own death sentence, but maybe there some kind of tactic that I never thought about, I was stressing that point exactly cause I want to learn it.

In our games, most of the fights happen indoors, or even in the same rooms. A large group of enemies are melee combatants - daemons, frenzied mutants, some xenos, battle servitors, frenzied cultists etc. With basic ranged weapon, maybe you can manage to fire twice, before enemy is on you. Hence shotguns, and pistol at that. They are my weapon of choice for weak non melee classes such as adepts or psykers (at the begining at least). When you start the game and have some money, invest in hack shotgun, and trust me, it will be usefull for most part of the game. Especially with inferno shells.

rafaelmb said:

I know I have a PC who has Meathammer, that is Compacted, and added a Pistol Grip to it for single hand use and a red dot sight between the 3 barrels. or as we look at it something like this (but his has no barrel past the stock )

Yes it short range weapon PB 1m/ S 2m/ M 6m/L 9m/E 12m with a single shot

but he uses it strictly as a GET THE ^&@%$(&! WAY FROM ME, Gun

2d5+5 with scatter and tearing

Works well as a 1 and done weapon with quickdraw (and the GM has allowed to be considered a Pistol for rules)

Angel of Death said:

My bet he will regret this!

Most compacted Basic Weapons would be better than their Pistol counterparts if it weren't for the fact that they can't be used in meele. To allow this creates many interesting weapon options but is the base for power-gaming.

Yeah, there is a special upgrade from RT - hostile aquisitions called micro. It changes the weapon class from basic to pistol.

In addition -2 to dmg, range and weight at 1/4, -30 to find concealed weapon and ammo is two steps harder to find, or just treat it as exotic ammo.

Amaimon said:

As the Compact Upgrade reduces range, weight and clip size to 1/2, it's only natural that Micro Upgrade should reduce not only the range and weight, but also the clip size to 1/4 and suddenly a Micro upgraded Storm Bolter isn't as attractive as it first looks. Probably a thing for the errata, if there ever will be another one for RT.

The carnadon has the accurate trait, which is why one of our ascened players still uses it, as he has a very low BS skill.

I also rule that bolt pistols are rather large and consequently, are not very concealable. Wearing big coats to hide it is also makes the players stand out.

Yeah, you know that accurate does not grant additional damage to pistols, only to basic. I missed that part "basic" for a while too.

Amaimon said:

Yes, i noticed, but he likes the +10 bonus. He had unfortunate rolls during his character creation.

That's still not an excuse to use carnodon in an ascension game. Any basic weapon with accurate and red dot sight would be better. Or cadian pattern hellpistol with built in targeter if he wants bonus to hit. Whatevs.

Low BS does not make character useless if he does not want it to be that way. He could grab encarmine and spray for pinning effect. Or some flamers, with them he can have 1 BS.