I've read some references to Lathe weapon upgrade. What book/page can I find these rules? I'm interested in its effect/cost/availebility/upgrade rules etc

Any help will be appreciated

PS I own DH & IH

The rules are in the IH, page 147 of the older BI version. The cost is on the next page.

Thanks. Also [Assandra Von Asura on Dark Reign forum answered this one]
Pg 147 IH hive and forge worlds
Its the Lathe Blade Weapon Upgrade. Really in the Forge world gear section

Speaking of Lathe blades.

Can you add the mono upgrade to the Lathe Blade or is the +3 pen included in that?

My Guess would be that they are already mono...

I agree. But there's a player in my group that insists that if it doesn't explicitly say that then the original rules on mono upgrades apply. The sick thing is he's got a freaking Lathe Blade that has higher pen than a power weapon because of that.

I agree. But there's a player in my group that insists that if it doesn't explicitly say that then the original rules on mono upgrades apply. The sick thing is he's got a freaking Lathe Blade that has higher pen than a power weapon because of that.

And that's the part where you introduce him to the real reason why the FFG DH books are all hardcover: The *whack* they produce on a player's head is just so much more satisfying.

By the way: The rules don't say you can't mono chain and power weapons either. "The rules don't say you can't" is generally a bad preamble to an argument if it isn't followed up by some more substantial reasons...

Cifer said:

I'd actually probably allow mono-ing a power weapon or chain weapon, actually. Provided of course they figure out how many teeth there are on the chainblade, divide that by 12, and then buy the appropraite number of Mono upgrades for the weapon from there. If they want to buy less than that numbe of upgrades, we then figure what percentage of hte teeth er covered, and they then roll on a D100 with that percentage as the difficulty. On a successful roll, the mono rule is in effect.

As for Power weapons, I'd probably let them buy it and use it at x5 or so price, since a normal mono-edging is distorted by the powerfield, and thus the edging has be done very carefully by specially trained smiths.

Geredis said:

Personally, I allow mono-edged power weapons... with the added note that the mono-edging only works when the power field is turned off (when a power sword's field is inactive, it's a sword... mono-edge a power sword, and it becomes a mono-sword when the field is off... it's still a power sword otherwise).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which is just how a mono-upgraded power weapon works according to the errata.

And as for chain weapons, the core rulebook describes them as having fast-moving chains of serrated metallic teeth. And I think it's resonable to assume that a mono edge is sharper than a serrated edge.

And as for chain weapons, the core rulebook describes them as having fast-moving chains of serrated metallic teeth. And I think it's resonable to assume that a mono edge is sharper than a serrated edge.

I think it's rather more reasonable to assume they've already got mono-equivalent edges - at least, I fail to see a reason why they don't have the Primitive trait otherwise.

Cifer said:

Because they already have a penetration of 2 they must have mono-equivalent edge? There are several weapons that have the primitive trait and have penetration of 1 or higher, and non-primitive weapons with a penetration of 0. As I said: chain weapons have, according to the book, "serrated metallic teeth", serrated edges have, by definition: "...a cutting edge that has many small points of contact with the material being cut." But even serrated edges needs to be sharpened. Mono-upgraded blades does not.

The mono upgrade can be applied to: "any close combat weapon." If they meant any primitive close combat weapon, I'm sure the change would be in the errata by now.

xenobiotica said:

To be fair Cifer made no mention of a Chain weapons penetration value. What was said is that it " more reasonable " to assume they have a mono equivalent edge to them. Which sounds good to me and will be my answer to a player wanting to mono a chain weapon untill an errata tells me otherwise. I wouldn't mention the "otherwise they would be primitive" idea as, I think the main reason they weren't considered to be a primitive weapon would be the motor that makes the teeth move round.

As for the "I'm sure the change would be in the errata by now" viewpoint. Erratas always cover everything that was missed originally, always!

That's why we have had two erratas for the DH core rulebook.

Lupinorc said:

Yes, he said "more resonable", but as I've said twice already: the teeth of chain weapons are described as "serrated" which is clearly not the same as mono, so why is it "more resonable"? If you want to argue that the wording in the book is an oversight and you think it should be different, that's fine, make a house rule to suit your case, I'm just arguing for what is actually in there.

I would think that the mono discussion is not exactly new, and considering the extent of the second errata compared to the first, not to mention the fact that they saw fit to expand significantly on the mono rules in the second errata, then that would validate my previous point, at least in this particular case.

xenobiotica said:

An Audi is clearly not the same as a BMW but can be considered an equivalent.

Speaking from experience of having the misfortune of cutting myself with a chopping knife and a bread knife (not at the same time fortunately ) I can say that I found the bread knife of comparable sharpness to the chopping knife. It certainly went through my hand easier due to the serrated edge. I can only imagine how much worse (or better depending on viewpoint) it would have been had it been a motorised serrated edge.

I believe that it is a perfectly reasonable assumption that the serrated blades of a chain weapon can be considered the equivalent of a mono bladed weapon. Yes it does not say in the rules that you can't apply a mono upgrade to a chain weapon, but sometimes the rules need to be taken with a dash of sense and believability (is that a word lol) as some of the options the rules allow are down right silly and have been discussed on this forum previously. For example, how might some one go about applying the mono upgrade to a chain weapon? As I see it, it would be a hell of a lot more complicated to tdo than a "normal" melee weapon. I imagine your average Tech Priest might say something along the lines of "the computer says no" were you to ask for it and try and offer you a nice mono sword if you really wanted something mono'd.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Lathe Tech Priest - Here, great Hero of the Imperium and friend to the Adeptus Mechanicus, we present to you this gift, a Lathe-Forged Sword.

(Ungrateful) Acolyte - Thanks I guess...Is it any good?

LTP - Is it any good!? It's paper thin blade can cut through armour and bone as if it is warm butter. Yet it is flexible enough to resist breaking under the impact of the most powerful blows. It will even remain unaffected by the devastating action of a power field!

UA - I see.....Can you apply a mono upgrade to it?

LTP - This sword is the pinicle of non power field melee weapon construction!

US - So can you?

LTP - Give it back. Here, have this woolworths voucher instead.

Basically, I would say, no you may not apply the mono upgrade to a Lathe Blade. It's already been made as awesome as they could and an acolyte that wants to is insulting the AdMech and should be turned into a Servitor!

Lupinorc said:

And a smooth blade can be considered to be equivalent to a serrated blade, but guess what, one of them still cuts through tough materials better.

Yes, a serrated blade cuts better than a smooth blade, but I would also argue that a mono blade cuts better than a serrated blade. It's obvious from the description that the mono upgrade isn't just the result of more work with a whetstone or a regular rotary sharpener, it has to be something special if the blade never loses its edge. The actual technology and method behind the mono upgrade is not explained so it's not easy to say what it can and can't be applied to. Serrated edges are harder and take longer to sharpen than regular smooth ones, but that's why there are specialized tools to sharpen serrated edges even today. If you think that the technology used to make mono weapons should make it harder to apply it to serrated blades then let that be reflected in the price.

I agree that some rules needs to be considered a little more carefully, but this is technology from way in the future we're talking about, even if it's from the Dark Age of Technology, that's still thirteen thousand years from now, it's not like it's easy to imagine. The rules even after the errata concerning mono it still says nothing about it being impossible to apply it certain types of weapons. It is even explained how different versions of the mono upgrade can be used to increase the penetration of weapons that does not have an edge, like hammers, still for the same price, so why is it impossible to find a way to increase the penetrative power of a row of serrated metallic teeth attached to a chain?

"Normal" Mono Best Quality Sword: WS+10%, 1d10+1 R, Pen 2, Balanced, Cost 200 Thrones

Lathe Sword: WS +10%, 1d10+2 R, Pen 3, Balanced, Immune to power fields Cost: 2500 Thrones

So it is the cost which makes me think, is +1/+1 and an Immunity to power fields really worth 2300 thrones or should the cost be lower or should you allow extra Mono enhancement.

Another option is to give a social bonus of +10% to those having one if the other party recognizes it (To: Intimidation, Charm)

Though I see those bonusses in the book as a mere guideline, my players won't be able to just buy one. One of my players plays a Moritat Assassin, she will earn one at some point (by the time the other pc's get their bolters).

Sang Raal:
Class: Primitive
Damage: 1d10+4 R
Pen: 5
Weight: 3 Kg
Special: Balanced, +10% WS

This long two handed blade is one of the few swords considered holy by the Moritat, though not a power weapon it is still very impressive and unlike other weapons it is able to parry a power weapon without it being destroyed.
It was forged long ago in the Lathe system as payment by the Adaptus Mechanicus for a Moritat assassin named Master Sapharus.
This blade is rumoured to have killed over a hundred thousand souls, perhaps this number is exaggerated, maybe not.
The blade is paper thin and slightly curved, stained with the blood of the souls slain with this sword. The grip black and inlaid with bone from its victims as is the scabbard.
Legend says it may never be re-sheathed before the blade tasted blood.

Might add 1 more to damage, not sure, though it would take care of the "I wanna powah sword" thing...

Edit:

One the quarry whats better, smooth of or serrated:
It is the smooth knife which makes the deepest cut with the least amount of force, it is the serrated knife which leaves the nastiest cuts
.
I work with (smooth edged) knives the entire day as a meat inspector, to cut meat, you need a smooth knife.
Meat/flesh is flexible so a serrated knife will get caught.


New upgrade:

Serrated
Cost 10 to base cost, can't be added later
Effect: +1 to damage
(Edged weapons only)

Santiago said:

Oh a resounding "hell yeah". Especially when you see a pile of broken chain and mono weapons next to the assassin with a powerblade.....

a nice sexy lathe greatsword, lightning attack, a 50+ strength and crushing blow?....mmm daddy like.

One thing to consider here is that the regular Lathe sword would cost only 250 thrones - apart from the fact that it doesn't exist because they're all fabricated at Best quality.

So when you compare it to a Best Quality mono sword, it's right in line, as I definitely believe Power Field immunity and a +1/+1 to be worth 500