Since my worlds report thread is at 800 views, i suppose i'll post a KRT report for people to see that are interested.

First tournament was tonight at Tempest games in Cedar Rapids. The venue used tables that were 2.5 feet by 2.5 feet, so the playing area was smaller, which really hampered everyone there. We still set up 6 asteroids apiece, so it was even more cramped. And those who had some opening maneuvers set up didn't get to play them due to the smaller map area. But it was a handicap for everyone, so we all dealt with it. There were 15 people, so we played 3 rounds and then the final game. There were 10 Rebel Squads, and 5 Imperial squads.

It was a 2 hour drive for me, and the tournament started at 6:30, so I knew it was going to be a late night. The squad that i played was:

Darth Vader with Concussion Missiles and Marksmanship, backstabber, Academy Pilot X4.

I don't remember the name of the first guy i played, but he played Darth vader with Swarm Tactics, Howlrunner with Swarm tactics, Obsidian, and 3 Academy Pilots. I smiled when I heard him tell me what squad he was playing, because I'm all too familiar with it. I knew that I had to focus on Howlrunner.

First round he moved one of his pilots the wrong way and flew him right off the board, so that was to my advantage. The attack dice were hot for both of us and the defense dice were cold. He spread his damage out among my ships, and I focused on Howlrunner and vader. i used my vader's Missiles to take out Howlrunner, then I don't remeber what happened but I managed to take his vader out with mine, I think. I took his Obsidian out along the way, so it was just mop up after that. I was happy at the end, because I played against my championship winning squad, and I didn't lose a single ship.

Round 2 I don't remeber that guy's name either. I'm sorry, but there were so many names being called out, that I don't remember. (Trent, i think?) He had Vader, Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel, Night beast, and Winged Gundark. this was actually a fun match, as it was kind of back and forth. I did manage to take his Howlrunner out with my Concussion Missiles. I got his Vader down to 1 hull left, and then proceeded to chase him around the board for a few rounds before finishing him off. In the end he killed 2 of my Academy Pilots, and had damage on many of my other ships, but i ended up 2-0.

Round 3 was against Travis, and he recognized me as the World Champ. He played Wedge with R2D2, RookieX2 with R2 Astromech, and Gold with Ion. This was a close game, too. My missiles weren't as effective against Wedge. i rolled 1 hit and 3 blanks, which translated to 2 hits due to the Concussion missiles card. Backstabber later finished Wedge off at range 3, outside of his firing arc, the dice were 3-3. I rolled 3 hits (probably focused one of them), and he missed his evades, so wedge was out. I took out one of his Rookie Pilots, and he took out 2 of my Academy Pilots before time was called. I think I won that one by 31 pts, so it was a modified win. Which gave me 13 pts.

So i was 3-0 with my squad and played in the final game against Hashik (sp?) on here. I played Slave 1, he played the Falcon. I focused entirely on the falcon, as I know it's a bear to take out. I managed to get it down to 1 hull left, but couldnt finish it. He won that game, and my Interceptors went down fast. It was late, and I was ready to get home. I finally got home at 2, about an hour ago. Still waiting for sleepy meds to kick in, which is why I'm typing this at 3 in the morning. It was a good time, and I came home with a Slave 1.

Maneuvering around asteroids with 6 ships on a small table was very difficult, but I was able to pull it off without too many asteroid hits. All in all it was a fun day. Next up is the bellevue tournament. See you then!

Thanks for that report. I am glad that you ended up likeing that marksmanship idea on Vader. Glad you got Slave-I. Hope I have that same luck tomorrow.

Get some sleep if you are coming to The Game Shoppe tomorrow. 2pm will come quickly.

It was great to meet f2f and play on Friday night. A very eye opening experience to see the Wave 2 ships in action…they are certainly going to add significant depth to the strategy and tactical options in the game. Lots of fun to just get a chance to see what they can do on the tabletop.

Good luck with the rest of your events - I'm looking forward to hearing reports from Omaha and Ames!

One thing i forgot to mention about my second game yesterday. I rolled a crit on his vader. The crit card that came up reduced his pilot skill level to 0. His skill level 9 Vader, with Swarm tactics, reduced to a 0. That was funny, unfortunate for him, but funny.

Today was the tourney at the Game Shoppe in Bellevue. Sean and the gang ran a great tourney. We had a great turnout, 20 people, nearly matching what the World Championships had. The spilt seemed about even as far as Rebel and Empire went. Today I ran:

Luke with R2F2

Gold w Ion

Rookie with Proton torps

Rookie pilot

I normally don't run rebel squads, so I had no idea how today would turn out.

My first game was against Dustin from Lincoln. Dustin ran Wedge, Dutch, and 2 Rookie Pilots. This was the game where I had my Star Trek moment: remember in the new movie when Kirk, Sulu, and the Redshirt were skydiving onto the platform, and the Redshirt with the explosives dies right away? yeah, well, he managed to put 2 damage onto my Rookie Pilot with the torps. I then proceeded to run him right into an asteroid, killing him without ever using his torps. Yep, reminded me of Star Trek. I did manage to take wedge out, then his 2 rookies, and I had Dutch ioned onto an asteroid. My torps rookie was the only one dead, so he conceded. When I flew my rookie into the asteroid to start the game out, I thought man, this is going to be a long day (after yesterday being long as well.) Apparently a 3 turn doesn't get you as far forward as I thought it would. Need to look more closely at that…

My second game was against Nick. This was a really good, close game. He had Rebels as well, but he ran a Rookie Pilot, Gold Squad, Red squad, and Grey squad. No named pilots, with tons of ions and torps and droids. I thought that was an interesting take on a rebel build. I think I focused on his Xwings. I did get to shoot my torps this time (2 hits that i think he evaded.) This one went to time, and I had him beat on points, but it was close.

My third game was against Brandon, who is a regular at the Game Shoppe. (Crimson something on here. Sorry I'm forgetting, been a long couple of days.) he played vader and Howlrunner with Swarm and 4 Academy Pilots. This one was a good game as well. I took out Howlrunner fairly quickly, and he took out my Torps rookie while i had a target lock, but before I got a chance to shoot them. I then had Luke with a range 1 on vader. 3 hits and a crit, which really hurt him bad. i then finished him off with one of my level 2's. At that point, he had killed a rookie, and he had 4 AP's left. but he had damaged Luke, so he finished Luke and my other Rookie off. So it was my full ywing vs 4 AP's. I know enough of this game to realize that 1 ywing will not take down 4 ties before it dies, even with ion, so i conceded. In hindsight, I would have liked to have played another round or 2 just to see, but i did the sporting thing.

Last match was against Rich. He ran Vader, Howlrunner, obsidian, and 3 AP's (sound familiar?) He ran them kind strangely, though, as he brought holwrunner with 1 ap on one side, then the other 4 on the other side. So I had lined up on Howlrunner anyway since she was my main target. I think second combat round I took Howlrunner out. My rookie got to use his torps, but again it wasn't very effective. He took out my 2 rookies, and I took out 2 AP's. It was a good, close game, and i think the final score was 56-54, and he got me by 2 points. I screwed myself once that game. I had Vader ioned to go right into an asteroid. Then next round i managed to run my ywing right in the way, then ran luke into him, so his vader ran into luke, thus avoiding the asteroid. Bad maneuver on my part. So I ended up 2-2 on the day.

All in all it was a great group of people and we all had a lot of fun. I'm not sold on proton torps, as I didn't get to use them twice, and the 2 times I did they weren't worth their points. I completely forgot to use Luke's ability until midway through game 3. I mean, I completely forgot he even HAD an ability. Sean was gracious enough to not keep the TO prizes, so 2 people got randomy chosen to take them home. The first name he draws out of the bag? Mine. So I ended up going home with an Interceptor. So now I just need an Awing and I'll have all 4 ships from wave 2. Hopefully I can get one in Ames tomorrow…I mean today. Guh, it's late. Need sleep…zzzzzzzz

Today was the Ames, Iowa Kessel Run. We had 9 people. There were 2 Imperial builds and 7 Rebel ones. There were quite a few 3-ship rebel builds, and Jim, the winner ran 3 rebels (Wedge, Luke, Dutch.)

I ran:

Wedge with R2F2 and proton Torps
Horton with Ion, Proton Torps, and R2 Astromech
Dutch with Ion and r2 Astromech

yep, 3 ship Rebel build with 2 Ywings. It was my fun squad, and I wanted to see how it would play.

First round, since there were 9 of us, I played against…no one. I got the bye.

Second round I played against Lynne, who is quickly becoming a good student of the game. She ran Luke, Gold, and 2 rookies. This game was about her learning how and when to use Target Locks effectively. So we talked a lot of strategy during this game. She played conservatively, but she was rolling incredibly well, and she took out Wedge fairly quickly, even with R2F2. i used torps, but they honestly didn't do much at all. I think i may have killed one of her rookies, and once she took Wedge out, it was just a matter of time. The bad thing about my build is once Wedge is gone, I have very little offense left, so Lynne won that game.

Third game I played against Troy, who I practiced my Worlds squad against prior to that tournament. He ran Wedge, Luke, and Dutch. I bumped my Dutch with Wedge, so didn't get to use R2F2, and he took Wedge out quickly. I then was able to put some damage on his Wedge and ran him into an asteroid to kill him. That was fun. So at that point it was even, but with Luke, he had better firepower, and it was a matter of time. I missed an Ion cannon shot on him, and he flew in and finished Horton off the next round.

So, I ended up 0-2 with my fun build. I'm really not sold on Proton Torps. They didn't do much for me at all these last 2 days. Think I'm gonna stick to Imperials. The top 4 got their prizes, and the TO randomly gave out the other 2. Ziggy2000 got one of them (TIE Interceptor), and a brand new guy to the game got the other (A-wing). He really didn't care about it, so I offered him $20 for it, and we settled for $25. mainly for me it's just so that I can say I have a complete Wave 2 collection even before it comes out. The proof: (ugh, hate myself in pictures…)

Anyway, had a fun and exhausting weekend. I need a weekend from my weekend…

What is the issue you are having with Proton Torpedoes? I've brought them in nearly everyone of my 30+ games as the Rebels and have never had an issue getting them off as you described in the first round.

I don't think running 1 is ever worth it, but with 2 (one on Wedge or Horton at least) I am able to consistantlly get first contact kill from long range sustaining minimum damage. I'd say 90% of the time I'm getting those kills, including both the game I played today.

I do not like 2 Y-wings (3 ship builds) because of how poorly it fairs against 4 ship Rebel builds they just kill your X-wing and then you will be hard pressed to deal the amount of damage you need to.

I guess it's just bad rolling. Siince I have to spend my targte lock, I can't reroll anything. And when I did reroll with Horton, I got 2 more blanks. I think the most I got was 2 hits all weekend long, and then my opponent could evade. They just didn't do anything for me all weekend. And certainly not kill anything. I tried to use them as quickly as I could, which against rebels just hit some shields. Maybe I'm playing them wrong, but they just didn't seem to be worth the points for me.

hothie said:

So I got a bit bored and rolled out 10 different instances of double torpedo shots against 3 and 2 agility targets (TiE and X-Wing respectively) using Horton and a generic shooter.

Horton: Other:

1. 1c 2h 1b- 1f 2b- 1f 1b 1c 3h- 1e 1f 1b- 2b

2. 1c 3h- 3f- 2e 1c 1h 1f 1b- 2e 1f- 2b

3. 2c 1h 1f- 2e- 1e 1f 2c 2f- 1f 2b- 1e 1f

4. 1c 2h 1f- 2b 1e- 1e 1f 1c 1f 2b- 3b- 1f 1b

5. 1c 3h- 3b- 1e 1f 1c 3h- 1e 2b- 1e 1f

6. 1c 3h- 1e 2b- 2e 3c 1h- 1f 2b- 1e 1f

7. 3c 1f- 1e 1f 1b- 1e 1f 1c 1h 2b- 1e 1f 1b- 1e 1b

8. 1c 3h- 2f 1e- 2e 1c 1h 2b- 1e 2b- 1e 1b

9. 1c 2h 1f- 2f 1b- 2b 1c 2h 1b- 2f 1b- 1e 1b

10. 2c 2h- 1f 2b- 1e 1f 2c 1f 1b- 1e 2f- 2f

The TiE (with an evade token added to the roll) dies 9-0-1 (possible death taking two crits) times, more then a few times to the first torpedo. A X-wing (with a focus) dies 4-2-4 (2x possible death with a crit, 2x with two crits)

Now that's a small sample size and is just Horton and non-Wedge, and doesn't take into account extra action economy (which would be mostly a benefit to the offensive side), but stuff dies. Even when it doesn't it's on it's last health. Your dice hate you man.

A quick fast and dirty probability says:

Each attack die has a 50% chance of hitting (3x hits and 1x crit out of 8 sides).

With four dice, then, average will be two hits.

Each agility die has a ~37% chance of evading (3x evades out of 8x sides)

With 4 dice (at range 3), a TIE fighter will average 1-2 evades.

Result is 1-2 hits per torpedo.

Add in the expectation that TIEs on the initial pass *should* either have a focus, or better yet an evade token, and they're very likely to cancel a minimum of one additional hit (total).

So, you are looking at 2-3 hits total. Very broadly, there is about a 50% chance to kill a single TIE with two torpedos on the initial pass at range 3.

Again, this is very broad and generic stats, not in depth number crunching.

You are also spending 8 of your 100 points for those two torpedoes.

Of course Horton increases the odds for his torpedo, which makes it more likely for more hits.

Looking at your numbers, though, it looks like you had some *really* good rolling for Horton. 6/10 resulted in 4 hits, and the remaing four were 3 hits. Those numbers feel above average, even for Horton.

Meanwhile, your defense dice look to be below average. 5/10 had 0 evades, 4/10 had 1 evade, and 1/10 had 2 evades.

Not to entirely discard the torpedo idea. I do think that if you are using Horton you have a reasonable chance of killing a single TIE fighter if you shoot two torpedos at a single target. I just don't think it works quite as well or as easily as you suggest. Certainly experience by a lot of people online have found proton torpedoes to be lackluster.

Why are you giving the TiEs 4 dice?

Indeed. No range bonus for secondary weapons, which is the topic of discussion here.

hothie said:

Oh my goodness! I did the same thing at one of the Kessel Run events I participated in. It was the third round, I had a full win record and so did my opponent. I had his Wedge perfectly set to go off the board if I could just ion blast him one more time -- but I ran my Y-wing right in his way, so he couldn't move a millimeter! There was no recovering after that. I was so embarassed and frustrated, but at least I got to take home a TIE interceptor.

ScottieATF said:

Ah, I'm not sure what I was thinking. Probably all the discussion about using stealth devices.

Still, my point is valid. Looking at your sample dice rolls, they clearly rolled better than average for your attacks, and below average for defense.

You never rolled less than 3 hits with Horton, for example.

dvang said:

* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [blank], [Crit], [Hit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 1 (Blank) and gets a [blank] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Hit], [Crit], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Crit], [Hit], [Hit], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [Focus] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Focus], [blank], [Focus], [Focus], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [blank] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Focus], [Hit], [Crit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [blank], [Hit], [Hit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 1 (Blank) and gets a [Crit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Focus], [Focus], [Crit], [Crit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Crit], [blank], [Hit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Focus] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [blank], [Hit], [Focus], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Focus], [blank], [Crit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Crit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Crit], [Focus], [Crit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Focus], [Hit], [Hit], [Crit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Focus], [blank], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 3 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [blank] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Focus], [blank], [Crit], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [blank], [blank], [blank], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 1 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Crit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 3 (Blank) and gets a [blank] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [Focus] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [blank], [Focus], [Focus], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [blank], [blank], [blank], [Focus], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 1 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 2 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 3 (Blank) and gets a [Hit] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Hit], [Focus], [blank], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 4 (Blank) and gets a [Focus] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Focus], [Focus], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [blank], [Hit], [Hit], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Re-Rolls Attack Die 1 (Blank) and gets a [blank] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Hit], [Hit], [Focus], [Hit], [ ] ***
* *** Scott Egan Rolls to Attack: [Crit], [Hit], [Hit], [Focus], [ ] ***

Horton is very unlikely to yield less then three hits when firing torpedoes because of his ability to re-roll blanks. With just a cursory glance at that quick set he's averging close to 4 hits (not even figuring in crits). In that set I only see 1 instance where he rolled less then 3 hits of some sorts. So I'd say >3 is very much within the expected range.

[Edit: I just realized where my mistake was. I had forgotten the 1 Focus->Crit ability of the torpedo itself in my numbers. That would indeed skew the hits average higher than 3]

In "reality", however, as I said, I've known/heard a lot of people who have tried torpedoes, even on Horton, and they never seem to work very well. So, despite the odds of Horton 1-shotting a TIE by getting 3+ hits, it seems to rarely happen in actual gameplay for some strange reason.

Certainly, if I was going to buy a proton torpedo, I would try to put it on Horton first and foremost. It does make him expensive, though, when you also factor in an ION cannon.

dvang said:

First, I have not mentioned anything about Horton one-shotting anything. If you read back I even said that one torpedo is likely a waste. I'm talking about what two torpedoes will generally yield. In response to Hothie getting so little from his, which given the odds behind the event are really low chance and atypical.

Secondly, peoples one time try and poor dice rolling aren't really a strong foundation to an argument. In the same way the occasional low chance one shot torpedo would make a poor argument. It's a false generalization.

My point being that Hothie's experience with torpedoes (dual especially) are really just low percentage and as such aren't a place to form a negative opnion from. In the same way low percentage positive event wouldn't be a reason to argue favorably for them. The tactical application of 8pts spent in order to gain an early kill is something to debate. Especially with what you give up to take the ordenence/give up to take the needed pilots to give you the odds.

Keep in mind, I didn't play against any Imperial squads with Horton. So I wasn't going to one-shot anything. The best I did was take some shields down, IIRC. Just wasn't worth it to me. And now we have Interceptors. Who needs Rebel scum anyway?

ScottieATF said:

While I realize you didn't directly state anything about 1-shotting, the inference was there with the "3-hits" by Horton. My point wasn't about 1-shotting with a single torpedo either, although I suppose it might have seemed that way.

Yes, a one-time-try with torpedoes is not by itself a strong argument. However, it does become interesting when you have dozens of people saying that their attempts to use proton torpedoes have not worked well. Rather than one person making multiple attempts, you have multiple people making a few attempts each. It comes out pretty similar overall.

Again, it is not to say that torpedoes cannot theoretically be useful. As you mentioned, 8 pts to kill something will theoretically be in your favor, even if it is just killing a 12-pt TIE. Something juicier like Wedge or even a rookie X-wing at 21pts is a net gain. Then again, those 8 points might not kill anything at all.

Another thing to consider, too, is the worth of 8 points of (one-use) torpedoes vs 8 points of other upgrades.

Especially in Rebel lists, 8 pts is usually at a premium. 8 points can allow some really good astromech upgrades, or pilot upgrades. Now, with Wave 2, those points could also be useful for ship mods. 8 pts for 2x torpedoes, or 8 points for an extra shield on two ships, like Biggs and Wedge? How about 8 points for an engine upgrade+daredevil on Wedge? 8 points for Stealth devices on Biggs and Luke? And so on. Is the gain worthwhile for spending 8pts on torpedoes?

There is no right or wrong answer. It all comes down to personal experience and preference. Many people have had bad luck with torpedoes, despite what the odds say. Those will likely (and probably already have) avoid torpedoes in favor or more consistent and predicatable upgrades. Others, who have had good luck with torpedoes, will likely continue to use them.

As I look back over this thread, I think there is a bit of a disconnect. I think "dozens of people saying that their attempts to use proton torpedoes have not worked well" probably refers to single torpedo usage, and not to them setting up the two-shot attack that is the key to Scottie's whole argument. As has been mentioned, a single torpedo attack is probably not going to get a kill (though it is statistically possible) but ganging up for multiple shots on a single target raises the odds exponentially. It is certainly very thematic, since the Rebels had to have multiple torpedo attacks to take down that first Death Star…

Torpedoes are certainly not the one-shot-one-kill weapon that Cluster or Concussion Missiles can be, but when used as Scottie proposes they can almost guarantee a kill. The question then becomes whether that 8 points is worth it.

I guess all my assumptions are based on Rebel against Imperial. In mirror matches, the torps become less effective, probably.

ziggy2000 said:

On the contrary, Torpedoes are far more useful and powerful in a Rebel mirror match.

Rebels have, generally, less evade dice and no access to the evade action, meaning that you generally get more hits. It's still not a one shot kill, because of the shields, but can be pretty devestating.

Especially when Wedge fires one at a Y-Wing.

godofcheese said:

Upon reflection I will agree that due to the lack of evade, torpedoes will do more damage in Rebel mirror matches than I had originally thought. Still, I stand by my statement that the general feeling of torpedoes being useless comes from them not being used to maximum effectiveness, as described by ScottieATF.