There is some question was to whether the initiative rules in the core rulebook over-write the simultaneous attack rules, but the tournament document very clearly states that they do not.

So with initiative that player has to move first (with pilots of equal skill) but also gets to shoot first. Moving first is very clearly a bad thing (obvious, and also because the game is designed so that pilots with higher skill move last). Shooting first is clearly a good thing. So with initiative you are forced to move first in exchange for getting to shoot first. Except per the simultaneous attack rules you don't even actually get to shoot first.

My question is confirming with you guys that everything above is correct, and then asking why having iniative would be strictly a bad thing given that the player with the lower point list is awarded initiative? Can anyone make sense of this?

Shooting first is still a good thing, in that any critical effects DO apply. Shooting is only simultaneous in that the other ship does not get destroyed until the end of that Skill rating's shooting.

So, for example, you should score a critical 'Stunned Pilot' hit, then despite being 'simultaneous' your opponent would not be able to shoot.

Moving first is only a minor inconvenience. Honestly, "moving first" has its advantages:

You know what is in front of you when you move, so it is easier to avoid contacting the other ship. Conversely, it means it is also easier to block the other ship and force it to run into you.

Really, the only downside to "moving first" is that you must select your action before the other ship.

Initiative isn't meant to be a significant advantage.

target lock and expert handling (to share the target lock) is best done when you do not have initiative.

"Having it's advantages" is certainly different from being an advantage. Being blind has it's advantages. At the very least its a point that reasonable people could differ on and is not a clear advantage, yet it is given to the player with less points as if to compensate. The way I see it, I actively do not want the initiative. It should at least be the player's choice as to whether he gets it or not if he has less points.

No.

# end of thread

No, Initiative is not a bad thing, though there are times when it is a SLIGHT disadvantage (against =PS, you have to choose actions first) and no it's not a good thing, though there are times when it is a SLIGHT advantage (against =PS, if you cause a critical, they have to cope with it for the firing).

Overall I think it balances out. It is simply a necessary part of the game in order to make things go smoothly and is neither good nor bad, it just is.

Thats why I will never be concerned as to whether I have initiative or not, and given the choice, I will spend the extra point on an R2 or R5 unit.

initiative is good when you are tied with your opponent for the lower point ships (ie. academy TIEs, rookie pilots etc). you get to move first to your desired location, and get to take an action, whereas going second you may hit something and lose an action. since actions in wave 1 i generally restricted to focus, evade, roll and target lock, there's only so many good actions you could take in any situation, so going second to determine what action to take isn't tht effective when you would be focusing anyways regardless of the situation, for instance

Moving last (and therefore selecting your actions last) is an advantage; this is why higher skill pilots move later in the turn.

Having initiative is absolutely a penalty in some cases. In one particular match where both sides were playing rebels and running Dutch, having the initiative (by building 99 points out of 100) absolutely crippled me.

Early game, I wanted to move my Dutch Y-wing in to acquire a target lock, but since my Dutch had to move first, I often found myself unable to reach range 3 to acquire lock. Then, when my opponent moves after mine, he can move into range 3, acquire his target lock, proc his Dutch's ability to hand off a lock, and end up with two target locks to my zero.

A better option, as suggested by my better half, would be for the play with initiative to have the option of whether they want to move first or last. This could be a one-time choice, taken at the start of the game, instead of a turn-by-turn decision.

kobzilla said:

I completely agree, moving last is of benefit, so in the movement phase, initiative can be a bad thing.

Conversely, shooting first is of benefit, so in the shooting phase, initiative can be a good thing.

Overall, across a turn, it balances itself out. That is why it is not worth fighting over who gets initiative, it is certainly not worth missing out on that extra point of goodies in order to get it.

Initiative is neither good not bad, it just is.

I don't think I'd ever try to build a squad specifically to get initiative, sacrificing some beneficial upgrade just to do so. If I ever have that one extra point I can spend to put an upgrade that will help me out, I will do it. On the other hand, if I've built the squad I want and have an extra point left over that I absolutely cannot spend anywhere, I don't mind dropping it and therefore gaining initiative.

The problem with iniative isthe term. Most of us are coming from some kind of gaming background or studies where who has initiative has the advantage. Initiative in X-wing is merely a way to indicate who should act first in the same skill level.

It would have been better if Fantasy Flight had referred to it as priority or precedence. Just a way to define who goes first.

The only build, or at least one of the only ones, that I would consider shaving a point or two for initiative in would be one using Turr Phenir with Veteran Instincts. This would allow him to shoot before any opponent (other than their own 8-9 skill guys with Vet Instincts of course) so that he could potentially then dance out of their firing arc with the free barrel roll and thus deny them a return shot altogether. Still would not possibly matter on some turns, but with enough practice with the sqaud it would happen more often I'm sure. Stil though, there would be times when it would be nice for him to see where the opponent's 9 skill pilot is going to end his movement if you somehow didn't have initiative, so even in a build like that that potentially has something extra to gain from initiative it's debateable.

8 TIE swarms or someone playing a non-upgraded Outer Rim Smuggler still wants to be able to move first to ensure blocking their opponent's movements, but they may very easily not encounter anyone playing 1 skill pilots anyway.

Deadeye for missles specifically kinda helps with the whole "I'd like to have initiative but can't target lock who I want" kinda thing. Still doesn't help Dutch or anyone else w/o missles though.

I like having initiative so I can move first (and hopefully prevent my opponent from getting one or more actions) . I ran a 7 TIE swarm at 2 Kessel Run events and put together a 99 point squad so I would hae initiaitve almost all the time. It worked well… I won one event and came in third at another (I would have been first or second in the latter one, but barely lost one game by 3 points I think I would otherwise have won if time hadn't run out).