Hi everybody,

I would appreciate some help with the following questions:

1) What is the correct timing for using dodge (as OL) or Aim (as Hero) when the hero is using fatigue for rolling one or more extra power dice? Before or afterwards or however you like?

2) Does the 50 gold reward for killing masters also apply in RtL?

3) When collecting treasures in RtL - how many gold does the party receive: 100 per hero or in total?

Thank you so much for your help!

Heinous Henk said:

1) Its never been entirely clear to my satisfaction, and I'm sure someone will probably tell you the rules say so and so now. My take on it has always been that you should be able to use Dodge as OL or a Hero after all the dice have been rolled and fatigue spent on that attack. By the RAW, I think you might be able to add dice after the use of a Dodge, but I'd look for a second opinion on this one. Aim is somewhat the same way.

2) Yes

3) 400 gold to the party per gold pile picked up.

Yeah, there have been a number of discussions about aim/dodge and spending fatigue. I think the important points are:

1) Aim and Dodge cancel each other out if both present, which means they need to be resolved at the same time--you can't resolve one alone and then subsequently resolve the other.

2) All the involved effects (aim, dodge, and spending fatigue) say that they are resolved after dice have been rolled.

I argue that because the overlord's Dodge is a card, it's the more specific/exceptional rule, and therefore it's more reasonable to give it precedence and allow it to be played after standard parts of an attack roll (like spending fatigue) rather than before. That implies that aim also has to be resolved afterwards due to point #1. But others have disagreed.

I've found that those who disagree seem to also say that you are allowed to have the Hero/OL reroll the fatigue/threat added dice AFTER they add them which is also after they rerolled the main part of the attack. To me, that has always violated the "You can't reroll any attack more than once" rule since adding dice with fatigue to the attack, in my opinion, is adding to the already Dodged attack. If you allow dice to be added after the Dodge is resolved, then you completely nerf the value of Dodge, especially for the OL.

I'm one of those people. I always thought it was the best answer in the terms of fairness. Not being able to buy more dice after seeing the outcome of an attack just because the target is dodging is saying "With higher than normal chances of failure, you also need to commit more to this attack." However, not rerolling the added dice lends more to the power of buying the improved dice because then there would be less of a chance of dodge affecting the number of surges or damage.

Letting power dice be bought after the first dice are rolled and rerolled keeps the option of adding dice to an attack as a viable and helpful option. Rerolling those dice also appeases the defender because their dodge is still having an affect on these new dice.

So if a hero targeted a monster that dodged but the main attack roll hit and did decent damage but not enough, with a 1/2 chance of rolling a power enhancement being rerolled they still have a 1/4 chance of not getting it. This means the player still has kept the option of adding damage, but the OL has still reduced his chances of dying. Win/Win

Big Remy said:

I disagree, but do not think that the extra dice added later can be rerolled.

Adding dice can be done "after rolling the attack" and as often as desired, one at a time. Upgrading dice can be done at any time before rolling that particular dice. There is no indication as to the exact timing of this dice adding, so by default it can be done any time after the first roll and before resolution of the 'final roll'.

Dodge/Aim allow someone to reroll the attack dice. There is no indication in either dodge/aim or adding dice rules as to any precise timing, so each can and should be done 'as and when desired', any time after the first roll and before the resolution of the 'final roll'. However, once started each should be completed unless deliberately interrupted (only likely when canceling and aim with a dodge or vice versa) and any additional affects thereafter are no longer 'affected'.

So if you roll an attack, it is dodged, you reroll. If the reroll comes up short, you can add more dice, one at a time and these additional dice are not affected by the reroll - that has happened and is done already.

Similarly, if you Aim an attack and after the reroll you come up short, you can add extra dice and the extras are not rerolled - though you could choose to add them before the reroll was made, possibly making the reroll redundant.

If an attack missed narrowly, a few dice were added making it a hit, and then a dodge was played (IIRC a dodge card can be played after seeing the dice rolls), then the (previously) added dice would be rerolled by the dodge. However, post-dodge, more dice could be added and these would not be subject to the dodge. Same principle for Aiming.

In the end, both sides have Aims and Dodges available, and so this is not a 'ruling' in favour of either side, although the OL has far fewer opportunities to add dice.

As far as I can tell, any other option is an arbitrary decision with no basis in the rules. This option, I think, follows the rules as closely as possible without 'adding' timing elements which aren't given or even implied anywhere. But the rules are clearly inadequate for directly resolving this question.

As for claims of 'completely nerfing' dodge, sorry but thats over the top rhetoric. It may make dodge marginally less useful at best.

Corbon said:

Actually, excepting anything in RtL that I don't know about, I believe the OL never has the opportunity to add dice after an attack roll. At least, it's not a standard monster ability, and I don't recall reading any cards or quest-specific abilities allowing it, and I've read all the cards and quests except for RtL stuff.

Whether any ruling is "neutral" or "in favor of one side" can't really be stated except in comparison to something else, but your rule is about as favorable to the heroes as it could possibly be. The only way you could make it more favorable for the heroes (without blatantly changing the rules) would be to say that the OL must always declare whether he is playing a Dodge card or not before the heroes decide whether to add dice with fatigue, resulting in never being able to dodge fatigue dice on any attack.

Your version also has the weird effect that when a hero is making an aimed attack and the overlord has a Dodge card, the hero gets to choose when both effects take place, because the OL is obviously an idiot if he plays it before the hero declares a reroll, and if the hero declares he is rerolling some dice and the OL does not play the Dodge card, he misses his chance. (Well, there's actually nothing either in your post or in the rules that directly supports the conclusion that the OL can't play it later in the attack resolution sequence, there's just no possible legal way to resolve it if it's played at that point, so it is implied to be illegal by a lack of rules supporting its resolution.) That's not an inherently unacceptable outcome, as aim is phenomenally sucky and so never gets used anyway, but it implies that the rule authorship is even worse than implied by other suggested rulings (not that this is in any way implausible).

Aim tokens get used when an attack is declared: the Dodge card gets played after an attack is rolled. Since rerolling didn't get its own discrete step in the attack rules, the timing of the two makes the precise interaction between the two unclear. Since this has never been addressed, I fear the implication Antistone was referring to is "likely" rather than simply "plausible".

I prefer to have all dodges and/or aims declared when attacks are declared and let players choose when to reroll any given die after rolling it, to avoid that timing confusion, but it's basically a house rule. It's not like there's a "decide how many dice you will roll" step: first, you roll your granted dice, then you spend fatigue to try and change the outcome. When you reroll your dice could fall anywhere after rolling during step 3, and it's quite clear that all dice "rolled" in an attack are subject to reroll, but aside from that one obvious tenet, reroll timing rules are undefined.

Then again, we've survived this long without such a definition, even though the the Dodge and Aim rules are ambiguous enough to allow a wide range of interpretatiotns on timing.

I'll admit I didn't read all the arguments, but here's how it works:

The hero rolls his attack. If it's enough to kill the monster he's obviously not going to spend fatigue to add range or damage. At that point the Overlord may play his Dodge card. If it wasn't enough to kill the monster, allow the hero player to spend fatigue. Then the Overlord may play his Dodge card.

Either way, once the Dodge card is played, there can be no more fatigue spent on the attack. As an Overlord you need to be sure you give the hero player(s) enough time to resolve their attack to their satisfaction.

The same is true for Aim though it's not contested. You make sure you're happy with the dice you're rolling before you roll them the first time because once you re-roll any of the dice for the Aim you can no longer add die.

MasterBeastman said:

I'm not sure where this is actually stated in the rules, can you quote it for me?

Trust me, I wouldn't mind if this was true, I'm just not sure it is.

Why would power dice from fatigue not be rerolled by a dodge but the power dice the player bought would be?

I know my method splits the rerolling into two different times but the dice are all only being rerolled once. This feels within RAI of the game and doesn't neccessarily break the RAW. I'm not rerolling any dice that were already rerolled, just the new dice being added to the attack with fatigue.

It's not strictly defined. As long as you:

A: Never reroll a given die more than once

and

B: Allow any number of attack dice to be rerolled (for a given definition of "any number")

you can pretty much rule it however you want and the rules won't go out of their way to stop you.

.

Or alternatively, there is really nothing to stop you playing Dodge after all dice have been added to the attack via Fatigue. The Dodge card for the OL simply says "Play after a hero has attack a monster. The monster Dodges the attack". The timing trigger I guess depends on what the definition of "after a hero has attacked", which can be anything from the initial dice roll to when he calculates how much damage he's done.

That's why we rule it the way we do. It's not defined by the rules because it doesn't need to be. It's simple logic.

The player rolls his attack. If it's enough to kill the monster then he's not going to burn fatigue to add to it. If the die roll was not enough then he may add his fatigue die into the attack.

It's after all dice are rolled the first time that the Overlord plays his dodge and decides which one(s) will be re-rolled.

Antistone said:

In RtL the OL can use threat for additional dice (or extra movement - basically 2 threat = 1 fatgiue) in any outdoor encounter - in fact that is the primary use in most cases IME (no cards, there are reinforcements that can be bought (usually) but they are frequently too slow to get to the 'front' and extra dice can be added to attacks that have already hit and penetrated armour, so its a pretty efficient way of dealing damage.

I guess you are right that the rule favours heroes a little - because they have more options for rolling extra dice, and I was wrong. Sorry. I was thinking more in terms that both sides have dodges and both sides have aims. However the OL gets to pick his (much fewer) dodges for critical cases.

I think you are mistaken about thehero aim/OL dodge affect being weird. It seems pretty simple to me. The hero must declare when he attacks (or at least before he rolls) that it is an aimed attack.
DJitD pg 14 A hero that has placed an aim order may make an aimed attack .
Before the hero rolls dice for an attack, he may use the aim order to declare that he is making an aimed attack.
If he feels the need to use the aim the OL has the option to counter it with a dodge. If the OL decides to use the dodge after the hero has rolled a non aimed attack then the hero cannot use the aim.
I'm not sure, with this mistake in process you made, whether your point here still follows?

Thundercles said:

I have to agree with this - with the proviso that ruling it some ways impose additional constraints that don't have any rules basis.

What we do know (I think):
Aim specifically must be played/declared before an attack is rolled (not sure about the OL's Aim card wording for this).
Dodge can be played at any time before the Total Damage is applied in step 6 (you can do all the math for step five but declare that it is just calculations, not the actual doing it).
Aim and dodge cancel each other so a dodge that cancels an Aim needs to be played before the dice are rerolled (the Aim is resolved) or the rules break down.
More dice can be added with fatigue any time before Total Damage is applied ( step 6 ).

I specifically see nothing to indicate that dice cannot be added after Aim or Dodge has been resolved, nor that Aim/Dodge can or should be applied retroactively to dice added after their resolution.

deleted post.

and made long enough.

Thundercles said:

1. Sorry, I see you had already clarified this.

2. I agree with the first part, but why is it 'quite clear' that all dice rolled are subject to the reroll? All I can see under Aim is that any number of dice may be rerolled . Dodge is the same, with the additional comment that this can only be done once per attack. I don't see anywhere that it says an Aim/Dodge may be used at more than one time during the attack and indeed, the extra comment on the Dodge would seem to indicate that it definitely cannot be used at multiple stages of the attack. AFAICS there are two possibilities here (well 3).
i) After an attack/dodge is declared and used (ie dice are rerolled) no further dice can be added. This appears to contradict the rule that extra dice may be added at any time.
ii) After an attack/dodge is declared and used (ie dice are rerolled) further dice can be added. These dice are still subject to the reroll. This appears to contradict the rule that a Dodge may only be used once per attack as there would be two separate rerolling steps. Aim doesn't say so specifically, but would presumably be treated the same by default for reasons of consistency.
iii) After an attack/dodge is declared and used (ie dice are rerolled) further dice can be added. These dice are not subject to the reroll (which has already been resolved). I can't find any contradictions here. The nearest to a contradiction is that aim/dodge can reroll any number of dice - which is not quite the same things as rerolling any or all dice involved in an attack including those merely possible at the time of resolution.
I take any number of dice being eligible to be rerolled as meaning any number at the time of resolution of the Aim/Dodge - the Aim/Dodge can't 'see into the future' and should only be applied to the dice involved at that time. Of course, the aim/dodge can be 'interrupted' and extra dice added before rolling/rerolling because of the 'any time' rule for adding extra dice. Those interrupting dice would be subject to the reroll of course (only likely for Aims).

3. I have to agree it is ambiguous. I am still of the opinion that option iii above is the most consistent with the RAW, however with way the rules are written, thats not necessarily a conclusive argument.

Thanks for your effort in solving this problem!

I understand the many points of view you can have on this issue. In fact it's a very rare occasion that some hero would decide to place an aim token as his chosen order (some would say it's a stupid idea...), but right now I'm playing a RtL campaign having Grey Ker with the "Born to the bow" skill card in play and this gets us to this dilemma every time he attacks. So far we resolved this by rerolling after the granted dice have been rolled and afterwards adding dice with fatigue. I see that this is slightly in favor of the heroes, because if some dice were added before the "aim" by spending fatigue they can only change the odds in favor of the hero but are also quite likely spent in vain if the reroll is very successful. Would you say that this disadvantage should be one the heroes have to live with?

(Sorry, if it sounds a bit confusing but English is not my mother's language. I hope that you can understand me)

Heinous Henk said:

I don't look at advantage or disadvantage. I look at what the rules say and whether any issues come up if you interpret them in different ways. They why I think my option iii is the best. It has nothing to do with advantage or disadvantage. I play both sides at different times, so advantage or disadvantage is irrelevant to me (though balance is not irrelevant, so perhaps thats not entirely true).

We use the following guideline:

An aimed attack is, by definition, an attack that is considered and focused. The total number of dice to be used should be determined at the start of the roll, as this is by nature a held or focused attack. The Aim then allows for the re-rolling of any or all of the dice used in the attack.

Dodge is the same, only in reverse. It doesn't make sense to consider, 'Okay, the monster dodged, so I'm going to make the attack stronger', as you would have had to amplify the attack prior to knowing that the target was going to dodge, thus requiring the amplification.

In simplest terms, dice can be added after the initial roll, but not after the re-roll...Aim allows the attacker to re-roll any number of dice after rolling for the attack; therefore additional dice are added to the attack roll before the re-roll decision is made. Dodge forces the attacker to re-roll any of the dice rolled for the attack, therefore additional dice must again be added before the re-roll decision.

Also, both Aim and Dodge state that the re-roll must be taken, regardless of result. Adding additional power dice after a re-roll prevents that lockdown, which defeats the 'it's a chance, but if you blow it, oh well' style of these orders/abilities.

Just our opinion, but it makes sense...you can't decide to Dodge in the other direction if your first Dodge got you hit!

Lots of thread necromancy recently. Since this is at the top of the forum again, it's a good place to note that:

As of the last FAQ, this has been officially answered: no more dice after the re-roll.