G'Day,

i've seen at cardgame DB that Deadly resolves as a passive effect after the framework action window with the "Determine winner event".

But how are Characters counted up? Rules say "during" challenge. With no specific point in time give does this mean all the time superiority has to be achieved by the attacker? Only till "Determine winner"? When does this start? With the new naval enhancement deadly characters may also later move in.

Nikator said:

Technically, it's *during* that Framework Action Window, not after. The step where you resolve passive effects is part of that Framework Action Window.

Nikator said:

You count the characters with Deadly when you resolve Deadly.

Nikator said:

Hardly. While the exact workings of the Naval Enhancement mechanic are unknown at this time, it is known that putting a character into a challenge via Naval Enhancement will be a player action. And there is no Player Action Window between determining the challenge winner and resolving Deadly.

Let me recap the relevant timing structure.

A Challenge goes like this:

Framework Action: Challenge type and Attackers are declared.

-> Player Actions

Framework Action: Stealth and Defenders are declared.

-> Player Actions

Framework Action: Challenge resolution
1. Determine Winner of the Challenge
2. Implement challenge result (=claim)
3. Unopposed is awarded
4. Renown is awarded
Passive effects initiated by anything in 1-4 are resolved, including Deadly ->here you count up the number of participating characters with Deadly and kill a Defender for Deadly, if applicable.
Responses to anything that happened in the Action Window up to this point, including passives, are triggered
Moribund cards leave play.

As you can see, there is no opportunity to trigger player actions during challenge resolution.

I think that's the way it should go, simply point in time at the end of the challenge resolution framework window (the one with the "Determine Winner" Event).

Nevertheless, i think that there is still a problem with "during" challenges.

E.g. Lethal Counterattack also uses the wording "during", and here i cannot see a restriction that "during" means only the challenge resolution framework window of the challenge phase timing structure diagramm. I have seen no specfic defintion for the "duration" of a challenge, but with a view to the arrow from the challenge resolution framework window back to the first player action and the Note "Active player's Next Challenge Opportunity" i would say "during a challenge" goes from this player action to the challenge resolution framework window.

But in connection with deadly this makes no sense, as the attacker would gain superiority simply at his attacker kneeling event and would always have superiority in Deadly if he has Deadly characters involved.

Im not sure what youre getting at, lethal counter attack is a player action, not a response or a passive effect, so it is played during the 2 player action windows well before deadly is counted.

It cannon be used after a challenge is being resolved in the framework action as its timing window has passed.

The duration of a challenge is simply from the start of the framework action in which a player declares challenge type and attacking characters to the end of the challenge resoultion framework action window.

To quote Darth, 'There is no conflict' (what follows aside).

No, for me is still nothing 100% clear. In the rules the wording is DURING a challenge and IF superiority is achieved. I could then say that i fullfill the condition at the moment i declare my attackers -> Deadly has to be applied at the end of the challenge. Of course non-sense, because there are now defenders defined and the attacker has always superiority.

Yes, i know, according to faq 3.31 there is no memory of removed characters, but keywords are not abilities, so deadly is not a constant ability, there its variables are constantly checked.

Currently i cannot see that Deadly is waterproof defined.

Nikator said:

I should add that I'm just doing some rules lawyering here because my interpretation is non-sense for the game. I'm curious if the current rules/faq give a waterproof version.

I'm always between reading rules/faq with common sense or in judicial/programming mode. No version does to fit overall. I'm from a conflict simulation board gaming background and the rules there are better in my opinion. You know ADVANCED SQUAD LEADER? 100+ rules and even if a word is written in Bold/Italic has a different meaning. AGoT has some problems to use terms either in a game specific sense or a common sense, like "play". Also the division between rules and such a big faq is questionable, in confict simulation there is usually an upgrading of the rules in a "Living Rules" format. If Rules are too complex there is sometimes an additional Beginners Version used, this would be current printed version in the AGoT Universe.

Nikator said:

This is absurd. By that logic, shouldn't I also always win a challenge when I declare attackers with at least 1 strength, because at that point I had more strength during the challenge than my opponent (who did not yet have the opportunity to declare defenders)?

The FAQ tells us to resolve deadly as passive in the final framework action window of a challenge. You can count deadly during a challenge all you like, but it doesn't matter until you are at that point in the timing structure.

Saturnine said:

No, that's not true. There is a specific Determine Winner event in the challenge resolution framework.

Saturnine said:

Where is it in the faq?

The rules with "…the defending player must choose and kill a defending participating character after the challenge resolves." only put the implementation of the result as a passive effect in the final framework window. Is automatically that the determination and implementation of a result for a passive effect is without a time lag?

And of course, why the heck are the rules not simply worded: "The defending player must choose and kill a defending participating character if the attacking player controls the most characters with the deadly keyword when the winner of a challenge is determined".

Faq shows when deadly is resolved specifically on page 24.

Please tell me if I understand this right =

Deadly
"During a challenge, if the attacking player controls the most participating characters with the “Deadly” keyword, the defending player must
choose and kill a defending participating character after the challenge resolves. "

"When do you resolve deadly?
Deadly is resolved during the passive resolution step in the Framework Action Window."

So, deadly only gives the timing of "after the challenge resolves". I can't find when a challenge resolves…it has 4 framework events/actions for determinting winner and each framework event resolves, but does the actual challenge have an invisible framework event window?

So, it looks like Deadly would resolve in a d) step as shown below, but I'm not sure which one….However, I'm more interested in that I understand the framework actions correctly than in knowing specifically when deadly happens, since I have read [above] and see that it is not readily apparent.

Framework Action
1) Determine Winner of Challenge
a)Framework event initiates
b)Save/cancel response to framework event
c)Framework event resolves
d)Passive abilities trigger and resolve
i)Passive action is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to passive action
iii)Passive action resolves
iv)Other passive abilities (triggered by this passive action) are initiated)
I) Repeat i-iv until all passive actions resolve
e)Responses are now triggered and resolved
i)Response is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to triggered response
iii)Response resolves (If this triggers another response, repeat steps i-iv)
iv)Passive abilities trigger and resolve (See above steps under d))
f)End of framework action (Moribund cards now leave play)
2) Challenge result is implemented
a)Framework event initiates
b)Save/cancel response to framework event
c)Framework event resolves
d)Passive abilities trigger and resolve
i)Passive action is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to passive action
iii)Passive action resolves
iv)Other passive abilities (triggered by this passive action) are initiated)
I) Repeat i-iv until all passive actions resolve
e)Responses are now triggered and resolved
i)Response is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to triggered response
iii)Response resolves (If this triggers another response, repeat steps i-iv)
iv)Passive abilities trigger and resolve (See above steps under d))
f)End of framework action (Moribund cards now leave play)
3) Reward for Unopposed challenge is rewarded
a)Framework event initiates
b)Save/cancel response to framework event
c)Framework event resolves
d)Passive abilities trigger and resolve
i)Passive action is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to passive action
iii)Passive action resolves
iv)Other passive abilities (triggered by this passive action) are initiated)
I) Repeat i-iv until all passive actions resolve
e)Responses are now triggered and resolved
i)Response is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to triggered response
iii)Response resolves (If this triggers another response, repeat steps i-iv)
iv)Passive abilities trigger and resolve (See above steps under d))
f)End of framework action (Moribund cards now leave play)
4) Renown is awarded
a)Framework event initiates
b)Save/cancel response to framework event
c)Framework event resolves
d)Passive abilities trigger and resolve
i)Passive action is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to passive action
iii)Passive action resolves
iv)Other passive abilities (triggered by this passive action) are initiated)
I) Repeat i-iv until all passive actions resolve
e)Responses are now triggered and resolved
i)Response is initiated
ii)Save/cancel responses to triggered response
iii)Response resolves (If this triggers another response, repeat steps i-iv)
iv)Passive abilities trigger and resolve (See above steps under d))
f)End of framework action (Moribund cards now leave play)

Melon-cat, that timing structure is not correct. First, all Framework Actions resolve, then there's opportunities for passives and responses triggering off any of the things that happened before. So the Framework Action Window would look like this:

1. a) Determine Winner

b) Save/Cancel

c) Resolve

2. a) Callenge result

b) Save/Cancel

c) Resolve

3. a) Unopposed

b) Save/Cancel

c) Resolve

4. a) Renown

b) Save/Cancel

c) Resolve

5. Passives (Deadly resolves here) -- for each: a) initiate, b)save/cacel, c) resolve

6. Responses -- for each: a) initiate, b)save/cacel, c) resolve

7. End of Framework Action Window

Saturnine said:

I see, that is much more maneagable to understand, thanks =)
I see it say's that in the FaQ in the examples, I just got confused @_@

So, if deadly is all the way at step 5, can you pay the claim of a military challenge with your 1 defender (assuming only 1 defender in the challenge) and then not have to pay the deadly cost cus he is already moribund at the passives step?

Melon-neko said:

That's exactly right.

And before Ratatoskr scolds me, I know I didn't use the same "step numbering" system as the FAQ. I just figured for this specific case it'd be clear. More generically and in accordance with the FAQ, the timing is:

1. Framework event initiates

2. Save/Cancel

3. Framework event resolves

Repeat steps 1 to 3 for each Framework event.

4. Passives

5. Respones

6. End of Framework Action Window

Melon-neko said:

Yeah, that's actually a huge consideration in a military challenge containing deadly characters. If you're going to have to kill a person to claim, there's no reason not to oppose their challenge and simply kill the character that you opposed with (to prevent the unopposed bonus and have the exact same board state you would have had otherwise). The exception, of course, is if the character you would have killed has no military icon. That's the reason, imo, that deadly characters are better served in intrigue and power challenges, they make the unopposed bonus more likely.

J_Roel said:

Absolutely. Deadly is significantly less effective in MIL challenges than in the other challenge types. Deadly changes the other challenge types into a form of MIL claim if they dare oppose you. It's a wonderful deterrent. :-)