deviant-dj said:

I agree….I think they are fine right were they are……I'm lucky in my area nobody is running Imperial swarms or 4 X-wing squadrons so I get away with a Gold Squadron build with “Dutch” leading, which is a lot of fun.

I always got the impression that the Y-wing we use in the miniatures game represents the more ramshackle, held together with sticky tape sort of Y-Wing. The fighters low agility is probably also 1 to represent it's outdated design and equipment compared to the more modern TIE series. Also people are forgetting that in Return you see Y-Wing's taking on fighters and winning, it's just pretty rare.

My experience of the games rules is that they work fine since they take 8 hits to down and can do some nasty damage with good die rolls. The imps are already fighting with a disadvantage with having no shields, astromechs, torpedoes, missiles and in some cases no pilot skills. There has to be some drawback to allow imperial players to shoot down Y-Wings. Also I have have had plenty of times where the imperial player has missed both shots and because of a combination of evade roll on the die a poor roll from the TIE player.

I think Y-wings are fine where they are at. They are the F-4 Phantoms of the Star Wars universe.

Think about it, with modern "jet" fighters. Any of the newer"top-line" fighters could easily take out a F-4, even though, just a generation ago it was the top-line fighter of its day. It started life as a fighter,with bombing capabilites, it was a BIG plane, was easy to spot (due to Radar, or putting out a lot of smoke with its afterburners), and could take a good bit of damage. Yet there are still F-4 variants in use today, and you can probably find some pilots that would love the chance to take one up.

Now think of the fluff, They were old (Anakin flys them in the Clone Wars), they were the best the Rebellion could get there hands on until just befor the Battle of Yavin, and the Rebellion kept them around because the trade off in maneuverability was off set by the lack of power put out by the TIE's

TIE: firepower 2 vs. X-wing maneuverability 2 is great, but the X-wing is the new, shinny fighter.

TIE fire power 2 vs. Y-wing man. 1 is still pretty good.

It is only when you get hit by a firepower 3 ship that it looks really bad. (Rebel vs.Rebel)

Here are my thoughts on the Y-Wing's Agility;

It's 1 for a reason, folks. Think in terms of a pure Wave 1 environment for the purposes of this example;

First of all, I have yet to field a Y-Wing without an Ion Turret, and I play all my games at 100 points. When I'm in a Y-Wing kind of mood I have two ways of running it; 3 Gold Squadrons and an X-Wing, or Horton/Dutch and an X-Wing (usually Wedge).

If you're running 3 Golds against another Rebel list that does not include any Y-Wings, I would say that accounting for average die rolling, once you get through the inital pass, you've pretty much got the game wrapped up; at best, your opponent has 4 ships, and if you're causing 3 ships a turn to get Ion Tokens, your lone X-Wing can start mopping up the helpless ships one by one.

3 shots versus the 2 Agility of an X-Wing is brutal. If you're able to Target Lock/Ion Cannon away and pull 3 hits, there's nothing they can do. Even 2 hits can still go your way, depending on whether there's Focus tokens involved, and what the defense dice say.

2 Y-Wings and Wedge gives similar results; you're not able to shut down the whole Rebel list in one pass, but Wedge vs X-Wings is just nasty. He'll help get the killing done fast, while your elite Y-Wings keep the other two ships locked down. This one requires a bit more thought into your movement, as you need to ensure Dutch is able to donate a Target Lock ideally to Wedge each turn, and Horton works best if you can Ion at Range 2 for the re-rolling of blanks. This frees up his Target Lock action to be used as a Focus to keep his defense up.

Either list vs Rebels with one Y-Wing just requires you to neutralize the lone Y-Wing ASAP, then you're all set. Versus another 2+ Y-Wings, it's going to be slow and kind of lame.

Wedge will totally ruin your day though, but since he can't kill a Y-Wing with one shot, you have your 8 total damage points (3 shields, 5 hull) to help you survive the initial pass, and then you're going to want to keep him zapped with the Ion token every turn possible, so he can't bring his weapons to bear on you.

Short version; in a Rebel mirror match in Wave 1, if you brought solid Y-Wing support to the board and your opponent didn't, then you're at an advantage, barring your own ability (or lack thereof) to move around the board to set up a good first pass.

Against Imperials is a little more tricky. You're going to want to take a look at the opponent's list carefully and look for some red flags;

Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel, a TIE Advanced with missiles, and 8 Academy Pilots

If none of those elements are present, you'll probably be ok. The TIE's can only shoot twice outside of Range 1, which means they can slowly erode your shields and hull, but not fast enough before the initial pass. In this matchup, I'd edge out the 3 Y-Wings versus the Elite 2, just because they can get that extra Ion token out each turn, potentially. Again, it'll come down to your ability to pilot the ships, but for the most part, there won't be enough against you to worry about. Backstabber's extra die is easily neutralized by Ion.

Now, if the above elements are present, you've got to be very smart with your target allocation. I would get Mauler out of the picture as soon as its practical to do so, as he can wreck your Y-Wings at Range 1, rolling 4 dice vs your 1 to defend. Add in a Howlrunner escort and a Focus token, and you're going to start losing ships.

Against 8 Academy Pilots, you can expect the opponent to try and focus-fire out your Y's one at a time, which will work quite well since each TIE can shoot twice vs your 1 defense die. You'll not be able to stand up for too long, so you're going to have to be really on point with your movements, and hope your Ions disrupt them long enough for you to cut their numbers down. If you can get 3-4 of them down quickly, you'll be able to turn the tides nicely.

I don't think Agility 1 is too low at all for what you get. It would be so cheap playing in Wave 1 against Y's if they were Agility 2. Wave 2 environment is a whole different story, though. TIE Interceptors can chew them up with 3 shots, and Firespray mines could get tricky to move around, not to mention the rear fire arc of the Firespray means that you may take some return damage despite your Ion tokens moving the ship's front arc out of harm's way.

Of course, there's also other upgrades from Wave 2 that can help the venerable Y-Wing along, but I won't weigh in on that until I've got a lot of proper Wave 2 matches under my belt.

I hope the Y-Wing doesn't get shelved in Wave 2, but if it does, at least there's more ship variety to play with, so I won't feel too bad about it. Ultimately, if you want a Agility 2 Y-Wing, spring for the Stealth device. It's points, but then I doubt FFG would "errata" the Y-Wing to be Agility 2 without a points adjustment anyways. THAT would be some overpowered stuff if they did. An Agility 2 Gold Squadron Y-Wing with Ion Turret for 25 points AND Agility 2?! I'd never take an X-Wing again…in Wave 1 at least.

Coming as a player who likes running one or two y-wings, my take on this is if your opponent is focus firing on your y-wing and not on the more flimsy x-wings they are doing their job.

Give your opponent the awful choice between firing on a y-wing at range one or an x-wing at range 2 or 3, or better yet, maneuver your x-wings to flank while the y-wings tie them up at range 1. Believe me, the y-wings can take a beating as long as the x-wings keep on pounding.

Honestly, i don't think Y-Wings should have 2 Agility. But i think they are just overcosted by 2 points each. A 16 point Gold squadron is much easier to justify in a list vs a 12 point academy in my opinion.

One thing i don't get either is the Firespray. Why 2 agility. It might be manoeuvrable but it's huge… And the falcon is less agile as a Firespray. Well idk!

The only thing I would change is to have the named pilots get the ability to have an elite pilot upgrade.

All named pilots should have access to the Elite Pilot abilities.

BigDogg said:

While it is weird to me that a pilot like Horton with 8 Pilot Skill can't take an Elite card, I think he's plenty ridiculous as it is, re-rolling blanks at 2-3 Range. I'm not sure what I'd honestly add to him if I could. Maybe Deadeye, in case a Pilot Skill 9 ship moves after him, and my goal is to hit it with Proton Torpedos on the first pass.

Normally you couldn't pull it off because the target wouldn't be in range for you to aquire a Target Lock until they moved in, so situationaly, it could be good versus Vader, Fel, Wedge, and Han.

Ultimately, even having the option to take a card would drive the points up, and they're fine the way they are. I've not really felt too lacking in that particular department with the Y-Wings.

The only one that I thought was particularly weird would be Dutch/Garven, strictly from a thematic point of view, because they are the squadron leaders of Gold and Red groups at the Battle of Yavin. Gameplay-wise, I've not really felt the need to pump them up with any talent cards. Similar feelings about Arvel in Wave 2.

You bring up something interesting.

Garven - Red Leader

Dutch - Gold Leader

Arvel - Green Leader

All are pilot skill 6, and none have Elite slots.

Honestly I don't think they should have them, because where do you stop? There are a lot of named imperials who don't have them(and certiainly shouldn't given some of their abilities) But I must say there are times when I wish I could take one, if nothing else because I have points left over and it would be better spent on an Elite than say torps.

This is from a few posts back.

cleardave said:

Many of your points are valid, and I agree that the Y-wing may be underutilized (or utilized incorrectly) in many wave 1 builds. But I feel I must address this statement that you made. Backstabber's ability triggers if he is "outside the defender's firing arc". The Y-wing has a standard firing arc for its primary weapon. The Ion Cannon does NOT alter that firing arc - it merely ignores it: "Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc)." Therefore, if Backstabber is attacking a Y-wing equipped with an Ion Cannon Turret from outside the primary weapon firing arc, his ability WILL trigger for an extra attack die. The Ion Cannon Turret in no way neutralizes his extra die.

BigDogg said:

I think Elite Pilot abilities would open a whole can of crazy with Y-Wings, although Determination would help with survivability in regards to critical hits.

So Arbel is Green leader and does not get elite skill. But the whole rest of his squadron does… That's kinda weird.

Also A-Wings, Tie Fighters, Interceptors get an elite squadron. But X-Wings and Y-Wings don't. Still the point difference between the low-skill and medium skill squaDdrons (Gold-Grey for example or prototype-Green squadron) stays 2 points. Well how is that explained since some medium skill squadrons are elite others are not…

As you point out, in the movies all Y-wings do is blow up.

But they don't, they're shown kicking ass at Endor.

I took a look at shadowjack's old, and pretty awesome, post about reverse engineering the points for ships. Here's the link if anyone is interested.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=254&efcid=6&efidt=734236&efpag=0

It seems like 2 weapons, 2 agility, and 3 hull are a sort of basic starting stat for ships.

At 2 weapons, 2 agility, 3 hull and 3 shield a 2 pilot skill ship costs 17.5 points, or rounded up is 18 pts, just like the current y-wing.

Here is the math

An FFG Gold Y-Wing (2 pilot skill):

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (1 – 2) x 8 + (5 – 3) x 4.25 + 3 x 4.5

‘Squad Points’ = 18

----

Edited Y-Wing (pilot skill 2)

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (3 – 3) x 4.25 + 3 x 4.5

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 13.5

‘Squad Points’ = 17.5

---

Maybe nefring the movement or taking away focus isn't necessary for balance after all. It might be interesting to have cheaper y-wings with no ability to focus, like tie fighter spam for the empire? However, Shadowjack couldn't find a direct correlation between points values for ships and their abilities on the action bar and movement dial.

Anyway here is a pic to show a comparison with the current y-wing, including nerfed movement (no points subtracted for nerfed movement, although one could argue to round the y-wing down to 17 points with nerfed movement)

What do you guys think, does this feel more like a y-wing to you or did FFG get it right with the 5 hull 1 agility?

They cost the same amount of points, which would you rather have?

If I'm playing Scum, the one on the left. Why you ask? Two words.....Unhinged Astromech. A green K-Turn? Yes please.

I think Y-wings are fine where they are at. They are the F-4 Phantoms of the Star Wars universe.

Think about it, with modern "jet" fighters. Any of the newer"top-line" fighters could easily take out a F-4, even though, just a generation ago it was the top-line fighter of its day. It started life as a fighter,with bombing capabilites, it was a BIG plane, was easy to spot (due to Radar, or putting out a lot of smoke with its afterburners), and could take a good bit of damage. Yet there are still F-4 variants in use today, and you can probably find some pilots that would love the chance to take one up.

Now think of the fluff, They were old (Anakin flys them in the Clone Wars), they were the best the Rebellion could get there hands on until just befor the Battle of Yavin, and the Rebellion kept them around because the trade off in maneuverability was off set by the lack of power put out by the TIE's

TIE: firepower 2 vs. X-wing maneuverability 2 is great, but the X-wing is the new, shinny fighter.

TIE fire power 2 vs. Y-wing man. 1 is still pretty good.

It is only when you get hit by a firepower 3 ship that it looks really bad. (Rebel vs.Rebel)

This is the analogy I always use! I cannot stand when people call the Y-Wing a dedicated bomber with terrible dogfighting ability, it doesn't stand up when you look at the films, which are the highest tier of canon. Y-Wings are shows as maneuverable dofighters, I'm fine with them being represented as a bit slower, a bit less agile and a bit tougher in the EU but I wish people would stop treating them like they're A-10s.

Here are the shots of the Y at Endor:

Here are the ILM production notes for Endor:

I'm cool with the Y-Wing being developed since then as a fighter from the previous generation that was used as an assault fighter as the X-Wing superseded it, I'm fine with it being 80MGLT like in the X-Wing games, unfortunately because video games need something to fill the "bomber" niche (and the mechanics behind it, ie being extremely slow) the Y-Wing is getting pushed into it and people who get into Star Wars now are starting to only know it for that. The Rogue Squadron and Battlefront games are an example of this.

I always figured the two seat variant would be 80MGLT and the one seater would be 100MGLT, that fits the films perfectly.

Y-Wings weren't the death boxes they are in our miniatures game

Shield hull ratio aside they match B-wings on durability. 8HP behind 1AGL. Constrast the less durable X-wing at 5 behind 2.

Y-wings don't dance like X-wings agility or dial wise without astromechs but they're tough and more reliable than the X-wing is in terms of survival. I don't think they're a bad representation.

It would allways be hard to decide the stats for ships.
Is it logical tah the y-wing has as much hull as the lambda?

Problem is that the game has no rules for armor, so tiefighters are better to take down big ships than proton bombs are.

There's a reason why my friends and I always used to say "Bury me in a Y-shaped coffin!" when we had to fly the Y-Wing in X-Wing on the PC...

I took a look at shadowjack's old, and pretty awesome, post about reverse engineering the points for ships. Here's the link if anyone is interested.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=254&efcid=6&efidt=734236&efpag=0

It seems like 2 weapons, 2 agility, and 3 hull are a sort of basic starting stat for ships.

At 2 weapons, 2 agility, 3 hull and 3 shield a 2 pilot skill ship costs 17.5 points, or rounded up is 18 pts, just like the current y-wing.

Here is the math

An FFG Gold Y-Wing (2 pilot skill):

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (1 – 2) x 8 + (5 – 3) x 4.25 + 3 x 4.5

‘Squad Points’ = 18

----

Edited Y-Wing (pilot skill 2)

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (2 – 2) x 8 + (3 – 3) x 4.25 + 3 x 4.5

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + 2 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 13.5

‘Squad Points’ = 17.5

---

Maybe nefring the movement or taking away focus isn't necessary for balance after all. It might be interesting to have cheaper y-wings with no ability to focus, like tie fighter spam for the empire? However, Shadowjack couldn't find a direct correlation between points values for ships and their abilities on the action bar and movement dial.

Anyway here is a pic to show a comparison with the current y-wing, including nerfed movement (no points subtracted for nerfed movement, although one could argue to round the y-wing down to 17 points with nerfed movement)

What do you guys think, does this feel more like a y-wing to you or did FFG get it right with the 5 hull 1 agility?

They cost the same amount of points, which would you rather have?

As you point out, in the movies all Y-wings do is blow up.

But they don't, they're shown kicking ass at Endor.

Hail arch necromancer, thou hast raised this thread from the dead!

As you point out, in the movies all Y-wings do is blow up.

But they don't, they're shown kicking ass at Endor.

Hail arch necromancer, thou hast raised this thread from the dead!

Wow, time flies. My son was born about a year after I made that post, and he's a year old now...! That's some really impressive necromancy.

But I stand by my original point: according to the canon, Y-wings are slow and poorly armed in comparison to "contemporary" fighters from the time frame of the Original Trilogy. Their durability, turret, and torpedo payload are what keep them useful, so I think they're well-represented in X-wing Minis.

And all they do on film is blow up.

I feel like donning a blond wig,pretending to cry while sobbing "Leave the Y-wing ALONE!"...

Check the post again, my image linking didn't work. Y-Wings really aren't shown just blowing up.

Here are the shots of the Y at Endor:

Here are the ILM production notes for Endor:

I always figured the two seat variant would be 80MGLT and the one seater would be 100MGLT, that fits the films and EU perfectly.