As I was reading through all of my Star Wars LCG cards again, I stumbled upon the Trench Run and had a rules question. It reads,

"Enhance the Death Star dial. This enhancement cannot be targerted. You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side obejctive [it is not an objective]. If the dial has 10 or more damage, the light side wins the game."

It's important to note that it SPECIFICALLY states that it is not an objective. Now, the rules state:

Each enemy objective may be engaged only once per conflict phase.

So the question becomes, can the Death Star be attacked multiple times per conflict phase? It sounds like this is the case, but it's very unclear.

Zach

I'll repost a version of my comment from my blog where you brought this up for the sake of the conversation:

I'm going to go with "no, you cannot engage it a second time" for this reason: if you were to engage it a second time, you would not be engaging it as if it was an objective because objectives cannot be engaged a second time. I know it's not the most airtight argument being based on some tight semantics, but I think either way it's a semantics argument. Hopefully FFG will include this in the FAQ.

Unrelated to what the rules as written are, I'm pretty sure the rules intent is that it can only be engaged once and the reminder that it is not an objective is to make it clear that you cannot hit it with Rebel Assault or Home One or such cards.

"You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side obejctive" reads to me that for the pupose of engaging it, it is treated as though it were an objective, and the "it is not an objective" is to imply that for any other purpose it is not treated as an objective. So the cannot engage more than once applys because that falls under "as though it were a … objective" part of the card text. Without an answer from FFG, RAW is that when you attack it all rules reguarding attacking an objective would apply. Anything else kind of harkens back to the MtG beta "Opponent loses next turn" debate.

just Logan said:

I think this is a spot-on analysis. The "as if it were" phrasing is used in other LCGs to denote you treat it as X for the purposes of some action; in this case engagement. The next sentence is telling you the card type does not actually change, for the purposes of cards that target an objective.

Also, I wonder how many people here were alive during the the MtG beta

the enhancement changes the dial to an objective and then it can be engaged once per turn

that is how i think it works , it will take 10 turns to destroy it

wormiespice said:

Uh, no it won't. You can deal more than 1 damage to it in a single attack.

Entropy42 said:

Plus, if you could only damage it once per turn, it would always net out even or even +1 since the DS advances it at least 1 place per turn.

So can the LS damage the Trench Run enhanced Death Star dial with the balance of the Force bonus?

Traden Myr said:

No, the death star dial is not an objective with Trench Run. It is only treated as an objective in that it can be engaged like an objective. The light side balance of the Force power allows you to deal damage to an objective which the Death Star Dial is not.

Honestly, this could be argued either way. It would have created a lot less confusion if they would left off the "it is not an objective" line. It easily could have been given something like "immune to other effects" or something like that. But by putting the "it is not an objective" in there, why can't you engage it more than once? Rulebook clearly states each objective can only be engaged once, Trench Run gives the dial the ability to be engaged, but clearly states that it is not an objective.

Until there is an official ruling, I am inclined to play it that it can be engaged more than once.

I do find it amusing that you can attack Trench Run with Home One and put a damage on each objective though.

To me, "You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective" is a pretty clear indicator that you follow the rules of engagement for objectives.

DailyRich said:

This exactly, there is no reason to think otherwise that has any logic. The card is pretty clear in that it can be engaged LIKE an objective and therefore follows engagement rules. That is all. It is NOT an actual objective for other card effects.

Once per turn "as if it were an objective" makes sense to me. As others have noted, specifying that the DS Dial is not, in fact, an objective reads like an attempt to make it immune to damage from other games/card effects.

Everyone is ruling this off of "intent", which I completely understand. I get it. But my previous post still holds true. I am going off of the actual rules and not intent.

I want a dispute from a rules standpoint and not intent.

The main question about the Trench Run that I have right now is wether or not the unopposed bonus applies to the Death Star dial. Because the rulebook states you deal one additional damage to the objective, will the non-objective engagement deal damage? By the wording I'd say no, but what would the intent be?

Much like the objective "Fleeing the Empire." At the moment it allows you to place a shielding token after you refresh, but by order of operations you remove all shielding tokens immediately after effects that occur "after you refresh." I'm pretty sure that one's a typo of some sort.

Entropy42 said:

I imagine a good many people here are 20 or older. You just made me feel really old, though. I started playing Magic when you could buy Moxes for $5 and Black Lotuses for $10. And none of us did because that was way too much money to pay for a single card. But we had so many copies of every dual land that when we opened them in packs we would rip them in half and throw them on the ground. Probably could have bought my house with all those destroyed dual lands.

Back on topic, I agree with it only being able to be engaged once per turn. It can be engaged like an objective. An objective can only be engaged once per turn. When you try to engage it a second time, you have to check to see if you are indeed engaging it 'like an objective'. If you find you are not--like, say you are engaging it for a second time this turn--the engagement is cancelled because you are not following the rules of engagement.

Darth Corvus said:

You need to read the entire card and not just the three words you want to see. Trench Run clearly states it is not an objective. So, since it's not an objective, you can engage it more than once and it does not suffer the unopposed bonus damage. Why? you ask, because as stated earlier, it is not an objective.

Again, from a rules standpoint, this holds up. Anyone can argue "intent" until they are blue in the face.

But the card clearly states "engage as an objective," and objectives can only be engaged once per turn. There's no intent or inference there, it's plainly written on the card.

It is engaged like an objective. Objectives can be engaged only once. So the Death Star dial can be engaged once like an objective.

Lets lay out the actual text here, because everyone seems to be paraphrasing.

Trench Run: You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective (it is not an objective).

Declare Objective: The active player declares which one of his enemy's current objective cards he will engage. Each enemy objective may be engaged only once per conflict phase.

Reward Unopposed: If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card.

I'll try to address these as well as I can.

Unopposed bonus: We are engaged, and the bonus is against the "engaged objective". I believe you can safely ignore the word "card" in this instance because if you haven't ignored the word "card" in the "Declare Objective" you never could have engaged this in the first place. Therefor through the entire "Resolving an Engagement" in respects to targeting "Trench Run" the words "objective card" should be reduced down to "objective".

Following that logic we get to

Engage Trench Run more than once: Since we have reduced "objective card" down to "objective" for "Trench Run" to begin with we now go back to the part of Declare Objective that says "Each enemy objective may be engaged only once per conflict phase". Yes it's not an objective, but since you can engage as an objective, and you can only engage once per phase, you cannot engage Trench Run a second time.

This is not implied by intent, this is a reading of the rules. You have to take the rules as a whole, you can't go picking the parts you want that when taken out of context support your pet desire to break them. Is FFG perfect on their rules, of course not or we wouldn't have the Refresh/shielding issue. But they did a pretty good job of this one in my opinion.

Great breakdown, but then it ends with "it is not an objective". I realize this is to protect it from other damage dealing cards outside of an engagement, however this part of that sentence is what needs to be changed in my opinion. Or add, "following all rules for engaging an objective".

Been playing FFG games for a long time and there has always some ambigous wording somewhere. Which is gonna happen, not a super big deal to me. I just think this card could be argued either way.

greyseerikrit said:

It's not about the words I want to see; it's about the English language, rules context and common sense. You can't argue what you're arguing unless you think FFG is stupid, or you're just wanting to find some accidental miswording that allows you to break the game until an FAQ is released. But you can't possibly think that the card is supposed to work the way you're arguing for it to. Play it the way you know it should be played, and wait for the FAQ if you really need it cleared up.

How can the DS ever win then? If I use Trench Run and get the Death Star dial to 10, then lose the Balance of the Force, on the DS next Balance phase, he will advance it to 11, and by the card ("If the dial has 10 or more damage, the light side wins the game.") I win the game.

That doesn't seem to fair!!

michaelramm said:

Dial position does not equal damage. You are confusing 2 very different counters in the game.

The Deathstar Dial is more like a ticking clock. The damage tokens you put onto it is something very independent of this.