I think you overestimate their chances!

…because in my experience, Rebels simply don't win. I'm at nine games now, and Imperials have won every match. I've heard of other people winning with Rebels, and even played at a table next to a game where it happened, but I haven't seen it personally.

What happens instead is that the Rebels lose their first ship no later than the second round of engagement. Usually it's either Biggs or, if Biggs isn't present, Wedge; that leaves the Rebel side tied or slightly behind on points even if they've managed to bag a pair of TIEs--which, given that TIEs usually have either focus or an evade token, is unlikely.

Now the Rebels are looking at a game where they're behind on points with one of their key pilots off the board. They're also still outnumbered somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1, depending on list choices. The Imperial player has the tactical initiative: depending on board position, he or she can either play aggressively if another kill looks likely, or play conservatively and just run out the clock.

So, to reiterate, it looks like one TIE per round is an acceptable Imperial loss rate, and you have to exceed that for Rebels to pull ahead. And I just can't see how that happens, barring a very lucky streak for the Rebels. So what am I doing wrong, and/or what's wrong with my logic here? Those of you who play Rebels and win consistently, what are your lists, and what are your tactics?

Can't say I feel the same, I have played both sides…There have been games where I'll have several of my TIEs one shot easy.

Vorpal Sword said:

I win quite a lot with the Rebels. Against both Imperials and other Rebels. My two primary Rebel builds are:

Dutch Vander - R5-K6, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Y - R5-D8, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Y - R2, Torp, Ion Cannon

and

Wedge - Expert Handling, R2

Biggs - R2F2

Horton Salm - R5, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

If my torps do average, I usually win. The games I lose are normally because I either don't get to use my torps or they whiff. I've got about a 50% win rate with the 3 Y-Wing build and I've only lost to Imperials 3 times with this build.

The Horton, Wedge, Biggs build just hits brutally hard. I haven't lost to Imperials with that build yet but it does lose to Rebels.

I try to foul up the enemy with Ion Cannons and set them up for shots by dictating their movements. Nothing fancy, just a pretty standard Ion Cannon tactic.

My experience is about the opposite of yours. I see Rebels winning a lot and Imperials have to have just the right build to get wins.

Jim

Emrico said:

Thanks for giving me something else to try out!

A 3 YWing build? Intriguing.

I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings. In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial. I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something. I will not include Biggs in my lists.

CaptainRook said:

What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots. Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead. Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.

There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out. Your statement just doesn't hold water.

Vorpal Sword said:

I've had intial sucess with the Rebels, and continued sucess even as our experience level has grown.

I can firmly say there is no reason why Biggs, in particular, is going down in the second round consistantly. That is only going to be the case if you are constantly rushing into Range 1 with a full group of TiEs. And frankly there is absolutely no reason to do that. You have access to defensive measures and better ranged elements, and I don't know if you are using them.

Player skill is the problem.

This is what I'm constantly seeing in various forums. If the Rebs are constantly winning, Imp players are doing some really dumb stuff.

"Biggs is bad because it causes the Imps to focus fire, and I'd rather have them spread their damage." What the heck kind of horrible Imp player are you facing off against? The Imp player failing to focus fire is why you are beating them, not due to a Rebel advantage.

"My 3 ship rebel build always wins!" Dig some more and you find that they are playing an Imp that is only using 4 or 5 ships.

"My protons are devestating!" Dig some more and you find out the Imp player is using a focus action at range 3 in hopes of being able to do damage with primary weapons.

The opposite is also true though. If the Imps never lose, the Rebels probably haven't figured out the Rebel synergies.

I honestly think the game is pretty well balanced, but I do believe that the Imps can give themselves a slight edge if they build the proper teams and use the correct tactics.

Too many people seem to focus on the idea of matching firepower. I have to assume these people are playing on small tables with no obstacles. Throw down an asteroid field (or even an asteroid belt) and maybe using the entire playing surface.

Maneuvering your ships is of critical importance. The only reason the Empire focuses fire is because you let them do so. The same goes for the other way around. If you're running three X-Wings against eight TIE Fighters then you need to fly right into that Asteroid Field and use it to your advantage. You have superior mobility.

Player skill and the ability to maneuver your ships strategically are rewarded much more than picking the right ships.

ScottieATF said:

One factor I didn't mention in the OP is that my home table is a 42"-diameter round table, which leaves me a square playing space about 29" on a side rather than the regulation 36". Games on that table close faster and have less space available for evasion; asteroids take up most of the available space, with narrow lanes between them, and that leads to some impressive furballs in the available open space (followed by survivors looping around or through the asteroid field to gain position for the next pass).

But Biggs with R2-F2 is still pretty much toast by the time he's taken 10-12 attacks, which is the third round of engagement at the latest. Biggs with R2-D2 is a mistake I've made several times, and he dies even faster than that--maybe 6-8 attacks, since he's worse at evasion and recovers at most one shield between combat rounds.

Part of it has been a learning experience: don't run Wedge without Biggs, don't run R2-D2 except on Luke, the mode for torpedo damage against TIEs with focus is 0, etc. But comments like yours make me believe I'm still missing something. What defensive measures do you mean? What ranged elements should I be using?

CaptainRook said:

Amen!

Alamoth said:

Amen to that, too! I think Alamoth's comment is what CaptainRook was talking about. You dictate how many ships they can line up for a shot by moving out of the way. I can't remember who said it, but flying unpredictably is of utmost importance for Rebels. I've taken that advice to heart.

This is why I fly a squad that's very similar to Emrico's Wedge, Horton & Biggs, but I choose Rookie + R2-D2 instead of Biggs. This means there is no synergy, and no reason to stick together. The opponent can't say, "Well, he's got to stay in range 1, and two fighters will only fit at range 1 at points X and Y, so I'll line up there." It's worked for me (so far) against Rebel and Imperial squads alike.

ScottieATF said:

You're absolutely correct, my maneuvering strategy that seems to consistently work is imaginary. Unlike you, who seems to follow me around on the forums and Troll my every statement. I know there's not a mechanic that forces you to shoot at a different target than the one that's damaged….it's called maneuvering.

Parakitor said:

The maneuvering dial is the most important, and least discussed aspect of this game. We go into rants about whether or not you have 42.5% chance of hitting Dark Curse at Range 3 with a Nerf Gun, when none of that much matters if they don't get prime opportunities to attack. The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.

If you are playing rebels the advantage is at a distance. You would think that would go to the imps having four evade dice but it doesn't. Imps have a hard enough time scoring a hit on two attack dice. Let us be honest about this. All these discussions are void after the Kessel Run. But I digress, I think the strength of the rebels is when you play the missions. The missions are balanced, challenging, and fun. I find it disappointing that there have been no mission events yet for the game. The new ship event isn't any different from a regular 100 pointtourneythat favors the Empire.

In the mean time I suggest rebel players try the following;

biggs at range three of ties with rest of your fighters at range two but range one of Biggs.

horton with torps.

Don't take just Y-wings or X-wings. Mix it up.

Balance out named pilots and generics.

after I got passed the learning curve with the Imps I only lost to Doug at worlds and that was some imp on imp crime. I finally lost with the same list I took to worlds this past weekend. I think my cousin is close to cracking the rebel list but it will take some time. Successfully using torps is a huge part of rebel domanince.

CaptainRook said:

I agree completely. When my friend and I first sat down to play, he picked up the Imperials and I took the Rebels. The first thing we sorted out was the maneuvering. We've both played tabletop games for years and know all to well that the correct movement on an early turn can pay huge dividends later on. Learning how to best maneuver your ships to gain tactical advantage is paramount to winning.

Did you know that the TIE Fighter can only make 90 Degree Maneuver at 1 Speed? This is hugely important. Or that TIE Fighters can move forwards at up to a speed of 5, and can execute Koiogran Turns at speed 3 or 4? Critical information. Those eight TIE Fighters can't shoot what they can't see. X-Wings can't make a 90 Degree Maneuver at Speed 1 and can only go forwards up to Speed 4. They also can only execute a Koiogran Turn at Speed 4.

I'd learn the maneuvring dials long before I cared about the attack power or defensive capabilities of any ship.

CaptainRook said:

But I'm not an experienced wargamer, and it feels like the conceit of starting the two forces at opposite edges of the table constrains my early decisions. Most combinations of movements bring my force closer to my opponent's force, in such a way that I can either:

A) Face the Imperials, and take their opening fire as the cost of being able to shoot back, or

B) Turn my firing arcs away from my opponent's ships, allowing them to shoot at my exposed flanks without the chance to shoot back.

Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?

Vorpal Sword said:

I think it was said best in an earlier post about being unpredictable as a Rebel and perhaps, sometimes, ridiculously cautious. Like I said here, I honestly don't know how to teach someone what to do with the dial. I actually spent some time on the table just scooting miniatures around and getting a good idea of the geometry you're dealing with. It really is just an experience thing, but if you actually were bored enough to do what I did, and sorta 'register' some plans to execute, it may help a lot. I like to move up the flanks a lot, which really causes an Imperial player to have to tighten everything up. They're also missing a critical maneuver which allows them to 'wheel' very well, and it can trip up a formation. Yes, TIE fighters can slightly outmaneuver an X-Wing, but they can't typically do it in a way that allows them to concentrate their firepower effectively. It's like a how a mongoose circles a cobra until it gets all knotted up and can't strike. They keep swinging wild to get little pot shots at you until they're bouncing off of eachother and then you turn in to shotgun them.

I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids.

Picasso said:

This is one of those weird games where it really does benefit you to practice alone, at least as far as maneuvering goes. It also really benefits you to prioritize what is really the most important in the game. Pilot Skill and Maneuvering, in my opinion, are more important than any of the other stats. While those stats are important, if you don't know your dial, the only stat you need to know is the green colored one.

CaptainRook said:

CaptainRook said:

Alright, lets get things straight. I have no idea who you are. I do not follow you around looking for your post. You posted in a thread that I happened to read, I disagreed with your statement. I also disagreed with the OPs orginal premise. So get it out of your head that I'm trolling you.

If you take a look at my posting history you'll see me constantly deriding players for just setting up straight on with thier opponent and throwing attacks until one side happens to die. I've talked again and again at the importantance of just playing smarter with the manuvers, or just thinking at all.

But even doing so does not prevent certain head to head situations. The is no reason to deride Biggs ability, when you can use it in conjunction with that manuvering stuff. You use Biggs to force bad shots when you can't prevent a gang-up, then move him out of formation to get them firing elsewhere, then roll him back in to protect your more important pieces.

Just because you are running Biggs does not mean you just throw everything out the window and line up straight and start swininging. He's a back-up policy to the fact that you can't out manuver everyone all the time. He also opens up new manuvers to you. It's awesome to run Wedge into Range 1 for some near auto-kills, but it can expose him to his own death. It's an even better move if you can slide Biggs along behind him at an off angle so the good Range 1 shots that would vape Wedge have to go at Biggs at Range 2 (or even 3), while Biggs is still out of the view of others TiEs.

Your post gave the impression that it's one or the other. Either you out-manuver or out-slug. It's simply not. Biggs is a tool that allows you to manuver in was you couldn't before, and scrap effectively when not able to out manuver.

CaptainRook said:

The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.

Vorpal Sword said:

I have managed it only a few times. Here’s one example. Opponent places 2 low-skilled TIE fighters at center. I place Rookie + R2-D2 opposite them. He places Maarek Stele in corner with Howlrunner (or some other high-skilled TIE). I place Horton and Wedge in my left corner opposite them. Then he placed Vader in center behind the two TIEs.

Opening move: my ships move forward 2, his ships move forward 4. I could tell that he wanted Range 1 badly, but since TIEs can’t move straight 1, he wanted to be sure he wouldn’t blast past me.

Second turn, I moved Wedge and Horton straight 1 to keep his TIEs in Torpedo range. Instead of sending my Rookie to his death, I had him Bank 3 to his left towards Maarek and his wingman. Sure enough, he sent his TIEs to far and Rookie was out of their arcs, but Vader had a decent shot. So Rookie, Wedge and Horton put the hammer down on Maarek Stele, while we only took fire from Vader, Maarek and Howlrunner.

It’s kind of a toss-yeah. You can’t do it consistently. But you’ve got to read your opponent and do what you think they don’t expect. It’s easier to be unpredictable later in the game, like you’ve said, Vorpal Sword.

ScottieATF said:

Wow. I would love to see you pilot Biggs because that sounds impressive. It had never occured to me to be risky wih Biggs like that. Brilliant! I don't know why I didn't think of it, because it's not like I run "Howlrunner" straight up with her wingmen.

(Sorry the quotes are all messed up. Still working out how to double quote)

…..and I don't like his ability. Therefore, taking it personally that I don't like his ability, is a bit foolish. You haven't changed my mind about his ability, or convinced me otherwise. I disagree. All you've done is turn my criticism of an inanimate object into criticism of me, personally. It doesn't hurt my feelings in the least, but just because you disagree that I feel Biggs' ability is particularly useless or detrimental, you've decided my reasoning for that is also invalid. Which it isn't. My experience has taught me otherwise. In fact, in the multiple games I've played against Biggs, it's been a major laughing point that the only times Biggs ever got targetted was exactly when he was the only thing that could be targetted(not because of his ability), because of how I maneuvered. I maneuvered, specifically, to not be forced to fire on Biggs so I could take out something worthwhile. Sure, it had a slight effect on how I played, but I still managed to win without a single lost ship. So, don't tell me my argument doesn't hold water, when it does….next time, if I fail to offer an explanation, just ask for it. I know I can be abrupt at times, but even I give someone the benefit of the doubt and ask them to explain their reasoning before knocking the possibility they may have any reasoning out of the park. it is very simply to maneuver in such a way that your opponent can't focus on a single ship, or when focusing on a single ship may not be as convincingly powerful or obvious(ships in various ranges). It is my opinion that Biggs' needs to be doing everything he can to stay in Range 3 to not be swiftly removed from the game, but then, typically, you've reduced your own firepower and synergy.

Alamoth said:

….the key thing I learned from practicing TIE Fighter formations, is that they will often trip up over each other when they turn. You have to make your opponent get greedy with them.

CaptainRook said:

I've also come to the conclusion that pilot skill is weird. It's a subtle way of bidding for movement and firing order, and one of the Rebels' problems is that they habitually bid way more than they need to "win".

For example, My go-to Imp squad is Vader/Howlrunner/4x Academy Ties. If the Imperials field the 6-ship Worlds squad, and the Rebels play Luke/Biggs/Wedge, then the Rebels are bidding ineffectively: Vader, Howlrunner, and an Academy pilot shoot, then all the Rebels shoot, then the other three Academy Pilots shoot. That's precisely the same order they would go in if the Rebels all had skill 2, meaning the Rebels are (in a sense) playing with a 16-point handicap.

Interestingly, if the Imperials do try to compete with the Rebels on pilot skill, it typically costs them an entire TIE fighter to do so--and the Rebels do much better. If the Rebels give up on pilot skill and just go with 3-4 generic pilots, they do better still, unless the Empire changes their list to either take initiative back or undercut the Rebels even further.

It would be interesting if the tournament rules reflected that subtlety, and allowed you to submit a main list and an alternate (or a Magic-style sidebar where I can swap Wedge and a couple of upgrades for a pair of Rookie Pilots). Even more interesting would be a drafting phase, where you and your opponents build your lists at the same time.