gruntl said:

gruntl said:

Have you tried any FATE based rpg? FATE is a system very much story focused, and with the addition that players take a big role on driving the story.

You have a fantasy setting called Legends of Anglerre if what you like the most are Fantasy worlds.

Cheers

Yepes

Emirikol said:

This isn't really true. The Vaults and the Guides are basically one release and neither are necessary if you already owned the core set. So you have brought the game once and then brought the rest of the stuff out of collectors instinct. You are not the only one, I did it myself, but i think its a bit much to blame FFG for our need to collect stuff. Also because the vaults and guides were just existing products re-packaged I dont think its fair to say that we would have 6 more products if they had not been released.

I think the vaults and guides were a mistake because they confused the route into the game. However I understand why FFG tried them. This type of RPG is obviously expensive to produce (evidenced by the fact that the Star Wars RPG keeps the dice mechanic but loses the cards) and FFG are the first to do it so they don't have a pre-existing model to follow.

You know something is up when the speculation thread starts having posts about other/alternate game systems.

I hope they keep it up and explore the game further, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the last will and testament of WHFP3rd

We are having great fun with V3 and do not want to move back to V2 or V1.

I would like to order today, but I'm wondering how much customs and taxes and shipping will I pay?

I live in Canada. Montreal.

Anyone know?

Thanks.

I'd love to order some of the stuff I'm missing, but if I were to buy stuff for $50, the shipping alone would be ~$90 (to Sweden), I just don't see how the shipping can cost that much, I've never payed that much before when ordering stuff from the US.

To Jericho, you can see the shipping cost if you continue to the secure checkout from your shopping cart and fill out your adress info. Can't help you with tax and customs to Canada though.

What an awesome opportunity for any fence sitters waiting for TEW redux to get on board. If I was in US I'd so pick up all the vaults again. Would be nice to have a travel n trash set.

Buy yes this is a case of actions speaking louder than, well, silence.

I don't care if the line is finished. Price has kept me away from this until now. I purchased the whole line thanks to this sale.

A roleplaying game doesn't die if the publisher stops making it. It only dies if people stop playing. Look at the number of people who play OD&D or 1st and 2nd Ed WFRP. I regularly play out of print games and I'll continue to play this even if TEW is the last thing produced (which i don't actually think will be the case but does seem to be a common belief).

It doesnt mean the game is necessarily ending. But it has been 5 years since they got the license, and it expiring may very well be on the horizon. The question becomes, who owns the system? If it is true that the new star wars RPG is based off the same core concepts, than the system may indeed belong to FFG.

I always felt that the last to 40K RPGs (Black Crusade and Olnly War) were largely attempts at having big sellers real fast to make money (which I fully support, being a capitalist) and had less substance than the earlier games. So if the license does expire in early 2013, GW will probably try to bring back thier % system and FFG may continue to use their system with a new setting (Grim or Firebound or whatever they have, Midnight?). Maybe they will use if for a Rune Wars or Dust RPG?

I doubt either FFG or GW would be keen on letting the license expire. GW is not interested in publishing its own RPGs or Board Games and I don't think anyone else could give them the revenue that they must have been receiving from FFG from all of the games it has been producing over the years. Whilst it seems that WFRP isn't the money spinner that FFG hoped (I assume the removal of the cards from the Star Wars RPG was because cost of production of WFRP cut into margins) the 40k game appears to be selling well as do the rest of the GW based products. At the same time GW licensed products appear to be a big proportion of FFG's output so I doubt that they would want to lose it.

Of course I suspect that there are still license negotiations built into the contract every few years and these could possibly explain the drop of in releases (not that I am aware of such a drop off in any line other than WFRP).

In terms of who owns the system? If I recall my game copyright law correctly you can't copyright a mechanic only the description of a mechanic. As most of the descriptions in WFRP are based on the flavour of the setting (Sigmar's Comets, Chaos stars etc) it would be very easy to produce a similar system for another setting.

It is interesting that recently FFG have gently nudged people to remind them of the existence of RPGs that they own the license to. I refer to the Fireborn novels that were released out of the blue and the recent promotion of both Midnight and Dragonborn's availability on pdfs (which is strange because I think they have both been for sale on Drivethurpg months if not years). This suggests to me that they are thinking of re-entering the market with a non licensed rpg.

I am actually a little bit worried about this. I still bought 3 expansions from this sale (those were 60€ cheaper with shipping costs than those are now in our local store).

If they are going to stop producing more boxet sets etc. to WHFRP 3ed, then it would be very nice from them to make some sort of announcement from this.

My guess is that the WFRP RPG will be allowed to wither on the vine probably. The 40K RPG's and the board and card games will keep the license going, which I believe has another couple of years at least on it. Maybe if the Star Wars RPG has been a success they might use the same mechanics on a new version of WFRP in two or three years time. Remember FFG are totally unsentimental and businesslike, they have no loyalty to any game that does not make enough money, however well liked by the players. They will only produce new versions of games as that is where the money is. The only question they will ask themselves is whether there will be a market for a new 4th edition of WFRP in two or three years time.

Selling product that close to cost is a pretty good indicator of it's future. I figure there are three possibilities here: (1) a new editon is in the works with a model more akin to what Edge of the Empire looks to be. (2) a new edition more akin to the 40k line. (3) a cancellation of the game, which may go to yet another company. I just don't know if there are separate licensing deals for WHFRP and WH40K. Personally, I'd love to see a new edition. I like third, but it is a bit cumbersome.

Count Zero said:

I would also love for Fantasy Flight to reivigorate the line by releasing a 3.5/4th edition. Something that would be backwards compatible with most of 3rd editions material, but lighter on components.

Something akin to the newer Star Wars rpg line, with possible optional components such as tokens, cards, standees, etc.

GoblynKing said:

I feel that if there are going to be cards at all they won't be optional. I don't think FFG would want to sell optional play aids. I think we've seen it fall flat on its face already. I just want a new version that doesn't take an hour to put away!

Perhaps a streamlined editon similar to the new Star Wars.

Is it so unthinkable to conceive of an RPG line as having a life cycle?

WFRPG is great. But I think I have what I need. The Enemy Within may make a fitting swan song.

Star Wars looks to be in many, many ways an evolution of concepts incepted by Warhammer. If that's where FFG's RPG resources are being directed, then great. Another wonderful license in a genre (space opera) that never really had an undisputed flag-bearer.

steveg700 said:

Not inconceivable, but they haven't even scratched the surface of the setting. They made some poor product decisions and it cost them. The line itself has years and years of potential; FFG just needs a team to tap into in, streamline the experience, and set a reasonable price point. I like the 40k games, but the WFRP team clearly has no idea what made the game tick in the first place.

They could really screw us over by doing the following: Release a star-wars version and then do an Elf and Thief product right away.

..but I don't think even they're that sleazy business-wise…

i think the writing is on the wall with this current iteration of warhammer. im thankful it got this far. a 100 dollar core box, a sizable rift between 2nd and 3rd edition players, a confusing release of player guides and vaults, followed by a series of expensive box releases that covered tiny niches of material ? to get this far was a labor of love because if im an exec thats crunching the numbers im pulling the plug on warhammer 3E shortly after launch.

you can see what ffg learned from this game in the new star wars game. people liked the mechanics but weren't so keen on the all the bits. star wars has the custom dice but we are back to the character sheet containing almost all of the info needed to play. paizo launches a beginner box at a low price point that barnes and noble and target will stock….star war beginner box with a lower price point and everything you need to play. people like the dark heresy/rogue trader/ deathwatch trilogy…star wars rpg is a trilogy of hard back books.

if you look at xwing and descent 2 they are basically stripped down variations of the warhammer 3E engine. im convinced warhammer 3E was and is groundbreaking but it wont be recognized as such until ten years from now when its mechanics are running all the ffg games.

dang thats a good sale but im all hyped for star wars and im playing x wing and descent 2. sigh. might just have to fill out the collection for completionist's sake.

Remorhaz makes some good points. Star Wars appears to be a conglomeration of all the things that have been successful with the other product lines. I don't blame FFG in the leest for following successs, however i cant help but think if the rumored 4th edition is true, it has to be backward compatible to prevent splintering the fanbase. Pissed off 3rd fans and the would be 4th fans who are affraid to purchase the game because it could be canceld at any time could result in no one buying the game.

After my last post I decided to write FFG again. Again I was told that they are planning more Expansions. And that the line will be around as long as people buy it.

They also said they do not respond to forum speculation and will not announce any new material until there is a release date.

So take that how ever you want. I'm hopeful. Cuz either way this is the only RPG I''m buying. I want the cards and I like the system. The world is up my ally also. So I'll pick up the 2nd Edition stuff for fluff because its (mostly) cheap but thats about it. They make a 4th Edition without cards, like all the other paper rpg's, I'm out. I would have enough material anyways.

cool stuff master yoda however rampant speculation based on nothing is a time honored forum tradition and i'll be horribly skeptic until i actually see said planned expansions on the shelves

gmanjkd said:

Ho, ho, ho!

HI,

I used to post here all the time, but got busy and sort of fell of the radar. Now that I have more free time I came here to see what's been going on with FFG and the fantastic Edge of Empires game coming up (that I've very recently gotten the chance to play a lot more).

For the past 5 years, until edge of empire, I have played Warhammer almost exclusively. My group even began porting other games into the Warhammer mechanics and I've ran almost everything using this system. The only real criticism I've ever heard about the game from other players is that the action cards and stance meters are the flaw of the game. This does not include the stance dice. They work fine, but the meter itself gets in the way of the game for them. The action cards and the complex recharge mechanics they also don't like. They just want to say what they do and not have a card dicatate how its done. This has been the case from playing at my local game shop to the group I play with regularly. So, I began running the game without them. Once you cut these components you cut out over 2/3 of what player's consider to be the "fiddly" bits. It works beautifully. The only issue is you have to cut all the talents that relate to "recharge" and redefine what the delay symbol means. However, the description in the books give clear examples on how to use it. To me, this sets the dice free and the player's have a lot less to worry about.

I think its funny on how well the Star Wars mechanics are being received comparatively. Star Wars is a great game, but it's essentially what I am describing: Warhammer without action cards. Star Wars maintains talents, it's just talents on one big fiddly bit - the talent sheet. The Force powers are the same as a Wizard Spell, but instead of the chart being printed on a card, its printed in a book. There is a still a micro-chart that explains how the power works that players are still required to track, it just tracks them differently. Now, there are some major differences between the systems, I am not denying that, but at their core, they are the same game. Years ago, in the house rules section I proposed creating essentially the harder, difficulty die that upgrades a purple when facing a serious bad guy. I am glad to see it in star wars (and I think Warhammer could still use it - my famous Orange die).

So its the same game in a different package. I do think its success - when comapred to the criticisms of Warhammer - is the removal of action cards and card recharge. But way back, 5 years ago (the stone age right?) the entire gaming industry was obsessed with designing MMO style RPG table top games. Even DND 4e, the walking disaster, was obsessed with it. It's what killed 4e over time as well. Actions being codified people do not want in an RPG anymore (if ever). It was a way to try to bridge a gap between MMO's and RPG's, but it just didn't work.

I do think Warhammer (and Star Wars) now face a new challenge. With the rise of games like Fate, Dungeon World, Burning Wheel, and other indie narrative games these big-box, traditionalist model games have a new beast. The market is changing drastically in terms of what people are looking for from an RPG experience and new, fresh designers are taking a totally different look at the RPG experience - though it has been around for years. Star Wars as well as the little I've heard about the next DnD is trying to bridge the gap between the traditionalist model and the narrative game. I think Warhammer was a great attempt at this as well, I just think it got lost in all the vitriole about "fiddly" bits. I do think its funny though anytime I hear someone sing the praise of these narrative games, then criticize the Warhammer dice. In a nutshell, no other narrative game - though they all try - are as capable of creating the type of narrative outcomes from their core mechanics as the dice FFG are now producing. They use complex mechanics to try and achieve it, but so far, they fail to capture the diverse nature of banes/boons. It just can't be done on a binary mechanic of standard dice. These dice offer so many more narrative possibilities than any other system out there. If you don't believe me, play Dungeon World straight up, then play it again modding it over using Warhammer Dice - just the dice, nothing else. It is by far a better narrative experience.

I do think that Star Wars will be well received - and I am glad that it is - but I wonder, 5 years from now, if the current trend of Narrative games continue to rise from the indie markets, I feel that it will be criticized for some of its more traditionalist mechanics that it adheres to currently. Just as 5 years later, Warhammer is seen as Star Wars' clumsy, ugly grandfather. Just last night, I read a Star Warsmodification to the Apocalypse World Engine. It wasn't half bad, but I think FFG's is better.

So, if Warhammer was to be revised I think they should look at cutting the action cards entirely and I think people would have a massively different reaction to it. I am curious to see if this is what's coming in the future for it.

Happy gaming,

Commoner