is the middle of the game the Sage has no spell and on his turn draws one, the spell says that is cast at the start of your turn can the Sage cast that spell at right away ?

thx
Alex

No, after he has taken the spell it is no longer the start of his turn.

He still started the turn with no spell, so he may not cast one obtained during his turn.

As talismanisland said, the Sage ability to draw a Spell at the start of his turn is completely different from the ability to always have at least one Spell, like the Prophetess of Wizard. I noticed many people confuse the abilities and speak of them as if they were the same.

Sage ability is written this way in order to allow choosing to draw the Spell or not. You know which card is on the top of the Spell deck, but you don't have to draw it because of your Special ability. The different wording brings special situation like this one, which are not Wizard's or Prophetess' concern.

thx a lot about this clarification

i lost a game 2 nights ago from that

i was at the warewolf and next move i was going in the valley of fire and next to me was sitting a friend with the sage character

he had no spell and he draw the aquisition on the start of the turn and took my talisman i arrgued about it and did not accept it

but because the other 3 players thought that he could take my talisman (it was what they wanted - cheating as it was) i try to explain to them of course but they did not listen

anyway ill pown them next time

If the Sage draws a Spell at the start of his turn, does that not mean he has a Spell at the start of his turn.

If not, why not?

PS. I don't play this way, just a random thought

Geoff

Cidervampire said:

it does not mean that because drawing a spell is an action made by that character therefor it stops being the start of his turn.

like talismanisland said ''No, after he has taken the spell it is no longer the start of his turn.

He still started the turn with no spell, so he may not cast one obtained during his turn''.

it is very clear i dont know how much more clear you want the explanation!!!

Geoff, it's that type of question that caused the Horrible Black Void to come into existence!

It's probably easiest to think of the "Start of your turn" as a moment in time, rather than a period of time or phase.

The text from Page 13 of the Rules states - "The maximum number of Spells a character may cast during his turn is equal to the number of Spells he had at the start of that turn."

The text from the Sage states - "If you do not have any Spells at the start of your turn, you may gain 1 Spell." - so it is already clear that he started his turn with no spells.

talismanisland said:

Unless the full text were to read "If you do not have any Spells at the start of your turn, you may gain 1 Spell, then start your turn."

Of course, it doesn't read that way, but it seems really cruel to grant the Sage a spell around the "start" of his turn, and then deny him the ability to cast it. It's not just cruel, it would be almost impossible to get players to remember that the spell they get to draw every turn cannot be cast. It's like making an event card that says "11 turns from now, lose one life." It's practically guaranteed that somebody's going to do it wrong, since it's so difficult to get it right all the time. I think the linguistic interpretation is correct, but it seems counterintuitive to playability.

Maybe a rewording for future editions? It is a bit confusing with a couple of other "start" references, like spells that say "cast at the start of your turn before moving." If you look at the top spell card before moving, can you no longer cast the "start... before moving" spell, since you've done something else? Or does that text imply that the "start" is a phase (like an upkeep phase in Magic) in which multiple things can happen, and that the start phase is only over when movement has been initiated.

However the start of your turn is a point in time, as is landing on a space... Should the Druid be allowed to gain his full complement of spells when he lands on the Woods? By this reasoning he would be. When does landing on a space end and the remainder of the turn begin?

I feel it is not difficult for a player to accept that he has gained a spell that he may use upon his next turn. 11 turns hence is a bit of a leap and you are correct in stating that it would be folly to include such a thing.

Talisman is all about simplicity, and it is hoped that the average player can at least stay one or two turns ahead.

That said, perhaps it does need covering in some sort of FAQ, but to be honest, if the results of games are argued on point of grammar, or indeed semantics contained on a card rather than played out in the spirit of the game, you have to wonder whether it is worth playing in the first place.

But beware, as we seem to be entering what appears to be a temporal anomaly... Captain, the crystals cannae take it!....

On a serious note, the Sage is fine as he is. Gaining a spell at the start of his turn but unable to cast it until his next turn. It is different to other characters, but that is the point. Not all characters are the same. At least it is better than a character who is unable to gain spells for free...

talismanisland said:

I thought that you may cast this Spell earlier - during another character’s turn. Am I wrong?

No, that's correct.

You can cast one spell during another player's turn.

So the Sage is not as slow as i thought. If he has the correct cards that allow him to cast in another's turn, then he can still draw a spell card each turn.

Yes, my mistake. You can of course cast the spell you gained during the turn of another player.

talismanisland said:

For balance purposes, I personally tend to agree on the Sage, and do think that it should be clarified because I'm guessing a lot of people are playing it wrong regardless of which way is right. It does severely weaken the sage as a caster, but that feels like a fair enough balance to me (the free fate on movement is nice). From a timing perspective though, I think I'm changing my mind a bit.

This whole thing raises several thorny timing issues. For example, if the start of your turn is a single point in time rather than the span before you move, that suggests that a character who begins his turn with Mesmerism and Divination (both "cast at the start of your turn, before you move" spells) cannot cast both because as soon as one has been cast, the turn's "start" is over. This is simply not correct, as I'll try to demonstrate.

This also suggests a much, much thornier timing issue still. Envision the following:

The Prophetess witnessed the Wizard get a Mesmerism spell in his last turn. The Prophetess is at the Plain of Peril with a Gnome and is on her way to the Crown through the Mines next turn. She knows that her way through is now doomed because the Wizard is going to steal her gnome. She only has the Shatter spell, which is useless in this scenario ("cast on any character at the start of his turn, destroy an object"). The last player's turn ends and the Wizard lifts his Mesmerism card high with a smirk on his face. Wham . Before he can play it, the Prophetess slams Shatter to the table, destroying the Wizard's Water Bottle. "What the heck was that about?" says the clueless guy playing the Warrior. The Wizard casts Mesmerism and the Prophetess is wagging her finger. "What?" the Wizard player asks. "I cast Shatter at the start of your turn," she says, "The Start of your turn has now happened. You cannot cast Mesmerism, read the card." He looks at it and it does say "Cast at the start of your turn, before you move." "But I haven't moved ," he says. "Doesn't matter," she replies, and she walks through the Mines with the Gnome, making the Wizard's Mesmerism spell all but useless. All the way to the Crown because she laid her spell down faster than the Wizard could.

Talisman isn't a game of physical reflexes. At least, it shouldn't be. I play with a couple of people who have physical handicaps that would make such reflex issues unfair and in need of house ruling.

For timing, I think I'm starting to read that spell text as an appositive clause that helps us to define what the start of a turn should be. The grammatical structure, I think, supports this.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_appos.html

If it is an appositive clause, then "before you move" is the definition of "the start of your turn." I believe the rules support this, which is why I think grammatically, the Sage gets to cast his newly drawn spells. In the rulebook, page 8, it defines the game turn. It says that each player's turn consists of two parts, 1) Movement, and 2) Encounters. There is no mention of a "start" point or "start" phase, suggesting that everything that happens before the character's movement is lumped together, and that the character's turn has not yet started until the movement commences. In other words, if there is a specific "turn start point," it is actually after the upkeep business of the Sage's draw and the casting of such things as Mesmerism and Divination.

The primary support for this idea that the "start phase" is anything that happens prior to moving is on the rear cover of the manual. At the very top, above "Move," it says "If you wish to cast any Spells that must be cast before moving, do so now." There are many such spells, and all of them that must be cast before moving also refer to being cast "at the start" of the turn. If doing something, anything, ended the "start" of your turn, that phrase would be singular rather than plural, saying "If you wish to cast a Spell that must be cast before moving..." Since the flowchart clearly indicates that multiple spells can be cast during this time, any single action, spell, Sage draw, or even ditching an object or follower (at any time) doesn't end the "start phase." According to the flowchart, the only thing that can signal the end of this phase is Movement (or theoretically, someone else's Sleep or Immobility spell).

I think in many ways this would be the most sensible way to play, since it would cover several other potential timing issues as well. Imagine I cast Mesmerism at the start of my turn, then you cast Counterspell, then I cast Counterspell on yours. The spells go off in last to first order (otherwise counterspell wouldn't have any effect). My counterspell goes off. Your counterspell fizzles. Then my Mesmerism fizzles. Why? Because before it went off, two other effects have been resolved, so it's now no longer the turn's "start." By having the large box at the flowchart's top as a Start Phase, I think we solve many of these problems.

And as an odd but on-topic note, it would completely change the Sage's spelldrawing. Without errata, if he draws Mesmerism, he can immediately cast it (it's his start phase and he has a spell, so he might as well cast it). Then he has no spells and it's still his start phase... so he can draw another using his card's ability. It's still the start phase, he still has a single spell, he's already cast one, so he can't cast this one until the next player's start phase at the earliest (rules, page 13). If this seems ridiculously powerful, realize that every other caster can do this at any time during every single turn, not just during the start phase.

I'd say that what we need moving forward are a turn "Beginning," a point in time as the revered talismanisland suggests, and some type of "start phase" in which pre-movement spells and abilities can be used. Even then, the Sage will have to be clarified, as will the reference on page 13 that states the max number you can cast is equal to the number you "had" at the start of that turn, since the Sage's (as far as I can think of) is the only ability that grants you a first spell during that period. My recommendation for turn structure would play things out for the Sage essentially as talismanisland suggests, albeit with some other rules clarifications.

Overall suggestion:

Split the turn into 5 major segments.

1) Beginning Point (no actions may be taken, looked at to determine # of castable spells and ending limited duration events like Blizzard, Slow Motion)
2) Start Phase (casting Divinations, Shatters, Sage card Draw, ditching followers and objects, etc.)
3) Move
4) Encounters
5) End of turn business (end Immobility, object ditching, etc.)

A very well thought out and valid point, and I like the suggestions for "turn flow" you have detailed.

We will be putting this forward as part of the FAQ initiative, but it could very well boil down to the fact that the Sage may very well be able to draw and cast within the same "movement". We shall have to see what the Keeper of the Talisman Lore (John G) decides!

I agree. I think that the Sage should be able to gain a Spell at the start of his turn and be able to cast it. If he casts it however, he does not get to draw a new Spell as this would be past the start of his turn.

On a side note many Spells state that they must be cast at the start of your turn, before you move. This means of course that you can roll the die for your move and then decide to cast that Spell!

librarycharlie made a good point. I agree that "start of your turn" should be considered a timespan that ends only when you move.

talismanamsilat said:

I had the same thought, but then a user (Dam) persuaded me that in Talisman the action "to move" is not "to take the figure and bring him to destination", but the whole movement action as described in the rules paragraph Movement (page 8). "Before you move" should include the die roll as it is not stated otherwise.

This is another point that requires a FAQ, because if you rule this way you can't use the Immobility Spell as it is described in the Rulebook example (which is illegal in any case).

The_Warlock said:

Yes, my Jedi Mind Trick powers have improved . I find it easier to think of Movement as mentioned above, the whole batch with die roll and moving the figure, instead of just moving the figure. As to Immobility, one or the other has to give (rulebook or wording on the card). Which will buckle, remains to be seen. Of course, if you go with "before you move" as only relating to moving the figure, then it works out IIRC, so I might be wrong .

talismanamsilat said:

I think you may not do that.

If you roll the dice, you must move the figure. So if you want to cast a spell at the start of your turn, you must do it BEFORE you rolled the dice !

Yes I agee with what you say. But if someone wanted to be argumentative they would try to do that!

The Immobility Spell actually infers that if you cast it on another character it must be at the start of his turn. It does not apply to the creature part. It could have been worded a bit better but there wasn't a lot of room left on the card!