After all the melee (used as a general term for non-ranged) combat discussion in the threads recently, I've been reviewing the melee weapon (Table 5-6) changes, especially "the great September melee nerf". It's been a few weeks, and I'm curious how it's affected other groups' play sessions. The majority of "melee" at my table is actually "brawl" that forgoes the brawling weapons, so I don't feel I have a good hand on what the changes did. Have previous melee heavy fighters moved away from it? Towards it? Are players relying more on ranged combat at short and engaged ranges?

It seems that now, post-nerf, even "Brawny" characters (Bra > 3) have trouble keeping up with the damage from most ranged weapons, even when using the heavy melee weapons like the vibro-sword & -axe. I'm personally of the mindset that melee combat should be pretty dangerous, because of the difficulty of moving to engage and (in this system) increased difficulty to score a hit a small distances. I'm not sure the current state of the melee weapons accomplishes this. I think there was some room for adjustment on the weapon damage bonuses, but the nerf went too far, especially on the axe. I think it would be reasonable to see a cumbersome rating of 3 or 4 on the axe, though.

It seems the devs tried to somewhat offset the reduced damage output of these weapons by imbuing them with some of the following qualities:

• Pierce
• Sunder
• Vicious
• Defensive

Do players (or GMs running melee-based NPCs, for that matter) feel that the penalties incurred by fighting in melee are offset by these abilities?

So, to reinforce the scope of the question and intended thread topic: I'm curious how the changes have affected observed play style or character creation.

Also, not talking about lightsabers here, only 'traditional' melee weapons.

-WJL

PS this is NOT a problem I noticed in game play. Instead, the post was secondary to the reluctance of a player to create a melee-centric character following the melee weapon nerf.

Just like a Sullustan to bring a knife to a gunfight…

On a conceptual level, I am fairly happy if guns are the go to weapon, with melee assuming the same importance it does in Westerns or Second World War movies. No should be choosing a sword as their primary weapon.

ErikB said:

It's uncommon, but it is there, even among non-Jedi.

Even in westerns, you've usually got one guy that prefers knives to pistols, though he does have a six-shooter as well. Look at James Coburn's character in The Magnificent Seven for a prime example.

My only real experience was outlined in my after-action thread.

In summary - the player fighting in melee was underwhelmed and felt he needed to upgrade to the biggest melee weapon available to compete with the ranged weapons. IMO, that shouldn't be the case.

gribble said:

Thank you for directly answering the question, gribble, and keeping it focused on the play that you've seen. That was exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

-WJL

For comparable prices, melee weapons are pretty fun to use. Pierce nicely balances the damage disparity, low Crit ratings keep them pretty brutal, and passive abilities like Vicious make those even better. Isn't there a talent that can lower the Crit to a minimum of one? Jury Rigged? So a Vibro-Sword with Crit 1, Pierce 2, and Vicious 1 ain't a bad deal with an invested Talent (normally Crit 2).

Blasters at that price deal… 7 damage, and can be stun damage, Crit 3. Basic, gives you range (more difficulty sometimes, which means less damage). The best parts of using ranged weapons in our group? Attacking as soon as first round dependably, and customization. Melee sorely lacks modifications/attachments, aside from Superior (**** expensive, prohibitively so). So it's a trade off at the moment, but guns have more developed potential (again, attachments/modifications).

Our group has made something like 10 melee appropriate attachments, which we like so far. And we like both ranged and melee with the "September Nerf," so pretty good overall, in case someone was hoping for a TL;DR version.

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to mention that we appreciate feedback like this, so please keep it coming even as we wrap up the Beta (since there's going to be time between the Beta and the final product that changes will still be made).

Also, just wanted to mention that the final product will have melee attachments; them not being in the Beta was a regrettable oversight.

Most of what I've seen in terms of game play is that unless your character is freakishly strong (Brawn 4 or better), then Melee Weapons are generally a sub-par option, with the lightsaber being the only exception in this regard.

So far, from what I've seen both in reading the rules and in actual play is that weapons tied to the Melee skill really did get too much of a nerfing. With the exception of the force pike gaining the Stun setting trait as of the Week 10 Update, melee weapons didn't actually gain anything in terms of weapon qualities compared to their original values.

Early test sessions did show that melee weapons needed to be dropped down a bit, particularly vibro-weapons. But on average, a Wookiee with a vibro-ax will have a base damage of 7 (Brawn 4 + Damage 3) with a Pierce rating of 2, putting them roughly on par with a Blaster Rifle in terms of post-Soak damage output, but with the added issue of needing to get Engaged with their target while the person using a Blaster Rifle can simply fire at a distance without much issue. In terms of actions, this gives the person with the ranged weapon the advantage regarding damage output, as the Wookiee could very well need to spend their entire first turn just getting into melee range, or accept that he's going to have to suffer some Strain damage if he wants to close in on that first turn. And unless the GM is courteous enough to put all their bad guys within easy reach of one another, the Wookiee is going to have to keep moving from one downed foe to the next. Meanwhile, the PC with the blaster rifle is happily shooting from a safe distance, perhaps even behind cover, and can easily spend their maneuver each round to Aim, giving them a better chance to hit or score a critical than the Wookiee would.

Brawl-based weapons seem fine, since brawling generally is a "last-ditch desperation" type of attack, and not something most characters really focus on. Even in the d20 games, a hand-to-hand specialist was generally rare, and took quite some time to really click.

As for a solution, I honestly think the best option to make Melee-based weapons a more viable option would be to increase the damage of them by +1 across the board with the exception of the lightsaber, which is potent enough as is and already got nerfed plenty with the removal of the Deflection and Defensive traits. With the slight boost in damage, it makes having a melee weapon as a primary means of attack a much more viable option, and makes it so that if non-Melee focused PCs find themselves stuck using gaffi sticks or force pikes, said weapons don't give quite as poor a performance in comparison to your average blaster pistol.

jordiver2 said:

Thanks for the input, but I'm curious about what you said about CR. Almost all of the weapons (ranged and melee) have crit ratings of 3. The only exception to this in the melee weapons is the vibro-sword with CR 2. If it were true, if melee weapons typically had a lower CR, I think it could be a reasonable trade-off.

The Jury-rigged is the talent allows characters to modify the CR of one weapon (per rank, I think. it also has several other uses). This talent is applicable to the vast majority of weapons, so it's applicability here is pretty narrow.

I think DM pretty much hit the nail on the head about the difficulty of getting engaged (basically an opportunity cost) and then only for a lack-luster damage output.

Thanks guys.

-WJL

I think the viability and effectiveness of melee combat very much depends on the terrain/room layout, etc. But DM is also on point: unless you have 4+ Brawn, it's just not effective.

One of my players is a Trando with 4 brawn and a vibrosword… In close quarters (ship hallways, narrow platforms, small rooms) he absolutely mauls everything in a couple shots; the pierce quality is key in helping him overcome the standard 4-5 soak that minions and henchmen tend to have.

Another one of my players is a 3 brawn gadgeteer with brass knuckles (primarily uses a mod'd blaster rifle). If enemies close on him, they're basically just stuck punching each other for no damage. After a few fights like this, the player now typically just takes strain to move to short range (2 maneuvers) and shoots. As mentioned in another thread, aside from the strain, there isn't much of a penalty to disengage from melee… And strain is easily cured with the gobs of advantage my table tends to roll.

So, in short, unless you're big, strong, and can take a few shots to get in close and stay there… melee isn't as effective as a gun. But if you are big, strong, and tough, then you can really dish out some pain.

Interestingly enough, in the final update, the vibro-weapons (including the force pike) got tweaked a bit.

The vibro-knife got an extra rank of Pierce, making it a bit better at punching through a target's Soak Value and putting it roughly on par with the other vibro-weapons, while the vibro-weapons in general now only need to score two Advantage to trigger a critical hit. With the Pierce quality, most characters using a vibro-weapon should be able to inflict at least a point of damage even with only a 2 in Brawn, which would be enough to trigger a crit if you've got the Advantage handy. So while you might not get as much raw damage, the fact it's easier to trigger a critical hit certainly helps make up for it.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah, without seeing the changes in play yet, I'm really a fan. The crit rating is nice but really neither here nor there for me, but the increased Pierce is key to making melee weapons stand up against your average opponent when you aren't maxed out on brawn, without making them too good in the hands of characters that are.

Brass knuckles still won't really stand up if you're not strong, but then I imagine that they shouldn't really unless you're a Bruce Lee type.

gribble said:

Given what I saw from the sporadic playtesting I was able to do regarding vibro-weapons after they had their damage output lowered, being able to score a critical hit with one or more levels of vicious behind it will definitely help, particularly as a critical hit guarantees at least one defeated minion, with the Pierce quality having ensured that at least one point of damage got through even for a Brawn 2 hero in most instances barring the vibro-knife (which has been resolved thanks to the extra rank in Pierce).

Donovan Morningfire said:

Good point - I'd forgotten about the critical taking out a minion thing. That will certainly improve things against high armour minions.

Lethal Dose, I swear I wasn't reading the future about Crit 2's on the vibro weapons, I just got too excited thinking about the sword, but I love the new fixes to the melee weapons. I can barely believe I generalized melee weapons as low Crit, sorry again.

Donovan Morningfire, bringing home the point again about closing the distance being a huge factor.

Another thing to keep in mind is how fisticuffs and dueling in hand-to-hand combat differs in the fact that one of your stats adds to damage for free (Brawn, duh), whereas in ranged it requires a talent and a Destiny Point.

In a low credits game, melee seems like more fun to me. It takes money to make a gun interesting enough for me, with attachments and modifications. But I can't WAIT for melee attachments/mods.