Hai Guys

Basically my question is :

I know in Melee that the Horde strikes every elegible target the relevant number of times (if they charge, 1 attack etc. unless they have swift or lightning or attack with two weapons) and can shoot at the same time to every elligable ranged target.

Shooting: If there are two PCs and a magnitude 15 horde being shot at by a Magnitude 27 horde… do the Mag 27 Horde shoot everyone twice, or only get two shots with which to divide between three targets as they choose?

I've read the BC rules a couple of times and I'm just trying to fathom how a magnitude 20 horde of musketmen can only fire two musket balls in total, rather than two at every target… but they do masses more damage (as the cloud of ball-shaped lead peppers the PCs / home-hordes to smushy paste) so I thought I'd check with the EXPERTS and get it cleared up.

Also: The Mag. 15 Horde can only hurl 1 shot back, right?

Having skimmed the BC rules, it would appear that they cause 2 hits, which can be distributed as desired, and that these 2 hits will do an additional 2d10 damage to whatever normal damage their weapon deals.

These are not Attacks (which can be Evaded) but hits. They can't be avoided. These two heavy hits is supposed to represent the masses of bullets (many of which hit, some which cause no damage due to Armour and Toughness), and several which will do some damage.

It is noted that for "normal" humans, fighting Hordes can be a sure death-sentence, and some rules for handling humans v Hordes are listed on p 274 of the BC rulebook.

Darth,

I looked into this question because I'm getting a different interpretation, but I think that has cleared it up, as, for some reason, I hadn't seen page 274 before (why? I don't know) but it makes sense now.

If I run by page 350, then the PCs cannot dodge the horde's Mag/10 shooting attacks that are divided between all targets, with an additional (max +2D10) D10 x Mag/10 damage. The Horde has to roll to hit, but no dodges allowed. Boom dead PC.

By Page 274, Every elligable target recieves Mag/10 ranged (and Melee) attacks, that can be dodged/parried, with no additional damage.

However they gain no bonus to hit the horde (why? Something about caution… well i suppose that it balances out. I suppose that the horde bonus would be added to willpower in this case…?) I'd think the Horde still has a bonus to hit at range since there's SO MANY.

I must say this I prefer (and WISH I'd read a week ago.)

So… next interpretation problem. The Horde has got muskets. They can't aim, they don't run out of ammo… so they don't reload? they can just blaze away every turn?

horde rules are made for giving marines a challenge. In Black Crusade humans deal with hordes differently. Most important difference: Humans can avoid attacks.

vogue69 said:

Yep, got that.

So… Reloads arn't required?
Hordes have no 'to-hit' bonus for size against humans? Why?
Can individual members of the horde be picked out? (drummers, banner bearers, captains etc.)

No reload is because it assumed that they all alternate between firing and reloading, I guess. The point being, there are so many of them that it doesn't matter. You're not considering details like who shot which round, how many shots, etc. You're not rolling 10s of attack-rolls. It's all baked into the additional damage.

But if you're not granting auto hits, not giving damage bonus, and not allowing aim, etc etc, then the Horde is just a joke. 20 troopers on their own will be much deadlier than a horde of 20 magnitude.

Consider: 20 guys, BS 30, regular autoguns (Range 90). If using Aimed Semi shots, on short range (less than 45 m) they have an effective BS of 50. (Going with BC/OW mods). That means that 10 of those guys will hit, with a total of 18 bullets, on average each round.

A similar Horde will have 2 attacks, with a 30 or 40 % of hitting (Do Hordes get Range modifiers?) That is, on average, they will not even hit once every round.

Darth,

Thanks for all the help on this.

I personally don't like the idea of auto hits - but you make a very valid point (how would you do auto-hit on auto, anyway? Sense would say 50% of total shots hit, hummm…)
There was a point made though that a Horde of 20 magnitude wasn't 20 guys, it was more like 100 enranged villagers with bad willpower, or a platoon of 30-50 guardsmen with better willpower. true 20 guys would mince, via dice, any PCs… But In a way I can see the fewer shots being effectively represented by the massive boost in damage (as those shots have to land HARD as opposed to not, and a BS check is a fair representation of this…

Hordes in Deathwatch - is Semi/full auto a half-action or full action for hordes?

I couldn't understand why Aim was taken from hordes! apparently they do get range modifiers. And by BC core page 274/275, if you're human, you don't get the size modifier to hit hordes? I… I don't get it. There's a HUGE crowd in front of you, acting as a Lead Magnet! something about minimal engagement…

I need to play-test them more, then. That's the simpliest solution… try them out both ways. Either that, or interpret the rules diff… I mean, as I see them.

I would most defintly not use hordes agains an all human group. once they become as powerful as space marines, I would use the normal horde rules. the watered down horde rules in BC (no dmg bonus, no to hit, and dodgable attacks) is primarily because in some groups humans work along side chaos marines.

keep in mind: you have to do 15 points of dmg after TB and armor to do horde damage. Not an easy feat in DH.

vogue69 said:

I used a Magnitude 40 horde of musketmen against 3 level 4 PCs and a Magnitude 15 Horde, and the PCs minced the 40 horde.
After the first 'barrage' the Horde was in pieces. I didn't see the 'watered down' rules until Darth Smeg pointed them out - true, I would have used those, but it didn't matter. The Aux nade launcher and autoguns sorted the problem.

15 points? no I reviewed that; Any amount of damge after armour/toughness will reduce magnitude by 1. (Page 349 of Black Crusade.)

read the next sentence after the one you quoted. or is that just a stupid example? why the hell would they write something like that?

But I guess, the whole horde thing just depends on the preference. IMO hordes don't go along with the Dark Heresy Feel. 20 single Musketmen would most certainly rip any Rank 4 group appart with ease.

Horde have more of a cinematic feel to them, mowing down hundreds of plebs. For me that's more suited for space / chaos marines and badass planetburning heretics. Not even only war has hordes. They take away a lot of the grit.

But I guess different things let different boats float

I`ved used hordes a couple of times to reflect either overwhelming odds or a mass of smaller enemies.

For example, once the players broke down the door on a massive Cult Gathering of `Weepers` in the process of worshiping the `Worm God`- there was over 100 of them in the room, as such, Individually rolling for each would have been insane. I instead turned it into a massive horde and the players ran for their LIVES (Once the cultists actually decided to overwhelm them)

I`ve also tried, back during my like… 5th session, I think? Or more to use Nurglings. Individual Nurglings. Over 15 of them. It was a horrendous idea and it quickly wrecked the mood, what with all the rolling. So from now on, I use nurglings as Hordess instead of actually playing the individual nurglign- assuming that is, there's really that many of them.

Other times players have fought large amount of mutants [like 10] and servitors [like 12], without it being a horde. Though these guys usually come in waves as they are engaged [What with their horrendous movement speed].

I Know, what the hell kind of example is that? I assume it suits boltguns… but come on, really?

Hordes… Well, I wanted to give them a shot. My Guys would mince 20 musketmen easy. So, I wanted then to face 200 insead - activate Magnitude 30 horde! There are a lot of things I would have changed from that part of the session - more shots, seperate musket blocks, less damage dice, fewer mercenaries, a cannon or two… more fog-of-war…

I think my players enjoyed the lack of grit, because they were badass army pummelers. Plus, they got to fight armoured mercs (a ninja and the black knight) and proceeded to mince them too, making them feel great.

Saldre,

YEAH that was my thoughts! Do I RP 20 musketmen who my players will send into oblivion in scant seconds or pit them against a horde that'll give then a lengthy thinking about?

Maggots calls for that kind of thought. I wanted to recruit them into wall-duty (to shoot men who are practically unarmed…) but I didn't want to be like "well there's loads of guys, but there's 20 who have it in for you by the look of it…"
Albeit i didn't get the rules right for them, but they enjoyed it all the same, and I'd do it again! (Plus, cannons… Who doesn't like those?)
Nurglings… yeah that sounds like it was unplesasant. 12 servitors would sort me out too, i'd be like MOAR PAPER

Ahh the slow march of deadly robot death servitors.