EotE vs. SAGA ed. (pros and cons)

By YIDM, in General Discussion

Posted at

Voice said:

In my mind, the only major problem with JarJar was that he succeeded *because* of his incompetence, not *in spite* of it. Sure, there were other minor issues (his voice, for example), but those aren't significantly worse than select other characters from the other movies that no one has any real issues with. Luke's "power converters" line, for example is roundly mocked, but the character is accepted despite that. As another example, 3PO's voice grates on the nerves of several people I know, and he serves largely the same role in the original trilogy, but where he fails he fails, and where he succeeds it's either because of dumb luck (remembering to turn the comlink back on in the Death Star), or because of his strengths (getting R2 bought, the Ewoks, etc.).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Lucas does Plot, Pacing, and Action well, and even does a passable job with intrigue, but the man *can't* write dialogue to save his life. Unfortunately, the surrounding Myth meant that no one had the guts to sit the man down and *tell* him that for the prequels.

I find that 3PO is much better a character than Jar-Jar - he has a narrow skill set, and shows competence within it. Jar Jar lacks ANY area of competence.

3PO is only mildly annoying; Jar Jar is exceedingly annoying, as what Lucas thought of as Cute is merely Insipid. Even my kids hated Jar Jar from the get go.

In game terms, JarJar is spending destiny so fast that the party has to be 8+ players…. and in order for Jar Jar to have it back to spend again, the GM is having to beat the party within an inch of their lives. So, let's see… Jar Jar, Anniken, Quigon, Obiwan, Amidala, R2, C-3PO… uh, hm… Ok, that's 7…

TPM also has the annoying Anniken being WAY too competent for his age, and almost as lucky as Jar-Jar. TPM is a pair of marty-stu's on a rampage, showing up the pair of Jedi… and doing it with a wink and a nod, as well.

TPM was a commercial success and an intellectual failure. And makes an excellent warning for GM's of what NOT to do.

EOTE CAN model both Anniken and Jar Jar… with a deep enough pool of destiny. But it's going to annoy players with splitting the party, hogging the destiny, and hogging the spotlight. WEG can't do TPM; it can do all the others. EOTE can do them all, except for force lightning, force choke, and force-based-healing, as is.

Posted at

YIDM said:






Once again though, I would really like the EotE system, when complete, to be able to reproduce what I saw on the big screen. Just as an example, when Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the 3rd movie and used the Force on each other. They seemed to be locked in a Force on Force power lock for a second or two, they it appeared it rebounded and they both were sent flying apart. I would like the EotE system mechanics to duplicate that effect somehow. SAGA edition did, it's a Force thrust or move object followed by a rebuke then a counter rebuke . If the dice roll just right (with 5 points of each other), both attacker and defender take the full force of the power and "fly apart" just like in the movies… A "perfect" simulation of what I saw on screen. I hope that EotE, when complete has something like that (or an optional variant to that effect).

Thoughts?

YIDM

Sounds like that might be able to be done with the dice used in the EotE system. A sucess with a disadvantage result while trying to move/thrust your force using opponet maybe. You suceed at moving/thrusting your opponet away from you but your opponet uses the same power the struggle occurs and you go flying back as well.

Posted at

chall said:

YIDM said:






Once again though, I would really like the EotE system, when complete, to be able to reproduce what I saw on the big screen. Just as an example, when Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the 3rd movie and used the Force on each other. They seemed to be locked in a Force on Force power lock for a second or two, they it appeared it rebounded and they both were sent flying apart. I would like the EotE system mechanics to duplicate that effect somehow. SAGA edition did, it's a Force thrust or move object followed by a rebuke then a counter rebuke . If the dice roll just right (with 5 points of each other), both attacker and defender take the full force of the power and "fly apart" just like in the movies… A "perfect" simulation of what I saw on screen. I hope that EotE, when complete has something like that (or an optional variant to that effect).

Thoughts?

YIDM

Sounds like that might be able to be done with the dice used in the EotE system. A sucess with a disadvantage result while trying to move/thrust your force using opponet maybe. You suceed at moving/thrusting your opponet away from you but your opponet uses the same power the struggle occurs and you go flying back as well.

I don't disagree with either model, but I don't think either matches my take on things. I hate that specific powers need to be used in opposition. I think a Force lock can be entered simply by two determined Force-users. Why do they both have to be using "Move Object" (to name a specific power). Why can't they both try to be stopping the other's heart while sabers are locked. Or one constricting a blood vessel in the brain while the other is trying to pry fingers from blade. Or one advancing while the other is trying to fling him across the room? Or one using Force-augmented strength against the others' Force-telekinesis augmented strike. Or two sabers locked when one has Force Strength vs. Force speed. For me, it's enough that either or both are simply using some type of Force power against/on the other during saber combat that enters the lock.

In this regard, I think the abstractness of WEG's very basic 1st Ed. rules is better match than worse: Control adds to damage, Sense substituted for prowess if better, and allowed the parrying of blaster bolts. It's fault was that because it was so abstract, it wasn't a very exciting or dynamic model to play. Various people had house rules to simulate more dynamic combat or more accurate modeling of things like the saber lock, but nothing ever got it for me. Enter D20 with its dizzying array of options, including separate rules for all of the individual Forms.

The one place which absolutely nailed the Saber Lock / Force Lock during saber combat for me, was not a pnp, but rather The Force Unleashed. There needs to be a way for a battle of wills/Force power to be going on at the same time the test of physical combat is occuring; the two should be in parallel.

Posted at

GM Chris said:

Having really GM'd a good amount of EotE at this point – I can solidly say that comparing Saga to EotE based on the rules and mechanics, is like comparing a double-bacon cheeseburger to kung-pow chicken. It’s easy to debate the merits of one cheeseburger over another. But EotE is on another menu altogether.

And that’s the tough part. MAYBE… you and your group are tired of eating cheeseburgers. Maybe you’re gonna order some chinese takeout for the night. Or maybe you and your group don’t like chinese food at all. gui%C3%B1o.gif (A big RPG developer has been convincing you for the last 15 years that MSG is bad for your health, after all.) [shrug] Or maybe you'll try it, and think it's a new, fresh meal. Maybe you’ll discover that you love it.

…

I’ve been playing and GMing Saga Edition religiously since it was released. I’ve been podcasting about it for just shy of five years. It’s the best cheeseburger I’ve ever had. And I know my cheeseburgers.

But I was surprised… by how “ready” I was… for some kung-pow chicken.

I'm getting major déjà vu. Has GM Chris used the cheeseburgers vs. king pao chicken thing before?

Posted at

Genghis12 said:

chall said:

YIDM said:






Once again though, I would really like the EotE system, when complete, to be able to reproduce what I saw on the big screen. Just as an example, when Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the 3rd movie and used the Force on each other. They seemed to be locked in a Force on Force power lock for a second or two, they it appeared it rebounded and they both were sent flying apart. I would like the EotE system mechanics to duplicate that effect somehow. SAGA edition did, it's a Force thrust or move object followed by a rebuke then a counter rebuke . If the dice roll just right (with 5 points of each other), both attacker and defender take the full force of the power and "fly apart" just like in the movies… A "perfect" simulation of what I saw on screen. I hope that EotE, when complete has something like that (or an optional variant to that effect).

Thoughts?

YIDM

Sounds like that might be able to be done with the dice used in the EotE system. A sucess with a disadvantage result while trying to move/thrust your force using opponet maybe. You suceed at moving/thrusting your opponet away from you but your opponet uses the same power the struggle occurs and you go flying back as well.

I don't disagree with either model, but I don't think either matches my take on things. I hate that specific powers need to be used in opposition. I think a Force lock can be entered simply by two determined Force-users. Why do they both have to be using "Move Object" (to name a specific power). Why can't they both try to be stopping the other's heart while sabers are locked. Or one constricting a blood vessel in the brain while the other is trying to pry fingers from blade. Or one advancing while the other is trying to fling him across the room? Or one using Force-augmented strength against the others' Force-telekinesis augmented strike. Or two sabers locked when one has Force Strength vs. Force speed. For me, it's enough that either or both are simply using some type of Force power against/on the other during saber combat that enters the lock.

In this regard, I think the abstractness of WEG's very basic 1st Ed. rules is better match than worse: Control adds to damage, Sense substituted for prowess if better, and allowed the parrying of blaster bolts. It's fault was that because it was so abstract, it wasn't a very exciting or dynamic model to play. Various people had house rules to simulate more dynamic combat or more accurate modeling of things like the saber lock, but nothing ever got it for me. Enter D20 with its dizzying array of options, including separate rules for all of the individual Forms.

The one place which absolutely nailed the Saber Lock / Force Lock during saber combat for me, was not a pnp, but rather The Force Unleashed. There needs to be a way for a battle of wills/Force power to be going on at the same time the test of physical combat is occuring; the two should be in parallel.