After reading through Honour the Chapter and some other DW books I've seen that there are many chapters of unknown descent. There are always some kind of indications from where they come from, but often there is nothing definite, probably left for players to define in their games.

So, my question is - Where do, in your games or conjectures, Blood Ravens, Red Scorpions, Storm Wardens and Carcharodons descend from?

In my mind, Blood Ravens do certainly have ties with Thousand Sons because of their high amount of psykers. Storm Wardens are kinda always implied to have descended from some of the traitor legions since they can have visions of their 'daemonic primarch' calling to them (maybe World Eaters?). Red Scorpions am not sure exactly, but since they are more than obsessed by their gene-seed purity, they kinda remind me of Emperors Children. Finally Carcharadons are implied to originate from Raven Guard, but I haven't delved too much into them from some other sources to say otherwise, but their brutality somehow reminds me of World Eaters also.

The reason for me asking this is two-fold. Firstly I am generally curious about what other people think since I love fluff, and secondly is because I would like to incorporate some of those mysteries into a campaign so I scavenge here for ideas

Thanks for any replies.

There are loads of theories, but the most popular include:-

Red Scorpions:- Emperor's Children

Carcharadons: Raven Guard

Storm Wardens: White Scars

Minotaurs: Chimeric, but possibly the Iron Warriors

Astral Claws: Dark Angels/Ultramarines

Star Phantoms: Dark Angels

There's loads of wacky theories about every chapter. If you believe some of the Horus Heresy material, even the Ultramarines Legion was rumoured to include the remnants of the two missing Legions, which means that Ultramarine geneseed isn't quite the vanilla flavour it's always supposed to be. (Note however that this was only expressed as a theory of a character within the HH novels.)

I tend to dislike the wackier theories…of those above, the only one I'd stand behind with confidence is the Carcharadons.

It's one of the biggest cliches in 40k for every new loyalist chapter to descend from traitor geneseed. I actually dislike this, as it tends to get used to make a chapter interesting rather than…er…actually making a chapter interesting! A greater challenge than creating a loyalist chapter from traitor geneseed is creating a loyalist chapter from loyalist Legion geneseed that's interesting and distinctive; one that stands out from its parent, like the Mantis Warriors or the Executioners. Tonally they link to their forbears (White Scars and Imperial Fists respectively,) but they have their own "feel" to them that make stand out well.

My theory on the subject is that not all of the taitorous legion astartes goes traitor.

That means that some part of the geneseed from the 9 traitor legion may have served in the fopunding of subsequent chap^ter with maybe some kind of work from the part of the adeptus terra and the Mechanicum.

For example maybe the blood raven geneseed comes indeed from the thousand sons Sm who weren't aware of the event on Prospero and the subsequent event, even maybe the great Magnus have forseen the death of his legion and let some in reserve to serve a greater plan. From those few survivor some may have stay true to their engagement for the emperor. Then after some genetech on their geneseed to make it less sensible to warp influence the geneseed was judge pure enough to be use once more and here come the Blood Raven (a highly heretical and traitor in their own right who must have been wipe out by the inquisition long ago, in my point of view, I hate them… really).

In an other novel in I don't remember witch book you see a band of Iron Warior stay true to the Imperium and fight their brother in an underworld fortress with the help and council of an ultramarine and an other SM. They had maybe be judge pure enough for their genesee to be used and give birth to a chapter like the Minautaurs.

etc…

Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons have been heavily implied, I don't really see any reason to doubt that.

I am not familiar enough with the Red Scorpions to speculate about them.

I think the Storm Wardens are Iron Hands. They have close ties to the Mechanicus and I can see the Iron Hands "quest for perfection" reflected in their obsession with swordsmanship and their habit of going around challenging the single deadliest thing they can find in mano-a-mano combat. "I must become the greatest duelist imaginable, even if it leads to my death singlehandedly fighting something I really should have had help with".

The only reference to the Storm Wardens being a potential Traitor Legion is that one of the two suggested Delirium Trellis visions (from the Deathwatch GM's Kit adventure) going off in their face being a "daemonic traitor Primarch calling the purity of his gene-seed into question". I think that's more to reflect their sense of loss over their past rather than as any sinister foreshadowing, but I suppose it could go either way.

In my mind, the Carcharodon Astra are loyalist Night Lords, for a number of reasons.

1: Their history is massively covered up, but believed to date back to before the near-mythical Astropath Wars of M32-M33.

2: Their modus operandi rely on surprise, terror, and merciless brutality in order to achieve total, uncompromising victory, usually with a heavy preference for brutal melee combat: i.e. the Carnage Solo Mode and their Chapter Advances having the cheapest Flesh Render Talent at 250 exp (only the Flesh Tearers get it cheaper with "Free at Character Generation").

3: I have never seen any mention of their Primarch, instead they have an unusually high respect for the Ministorum and the Imperial Creed. Almost like if they have some hidden reason not to venerate their own Primarch. I could be reading to much into the Nomad-Predation pattern, but I get the impression that constantly traveling through the void on an endless war to destroy the enemies of the Imperium and recruiting new members from the children of their murdered enemies, but it seems to me that they're on a penance for something. Just like fresh recruits must redeem themselves for the misdeeds of their ancestors, so to much the Chapter itself strive to redeem itself for their Primarch's treachery.

4: They have a geneseed mutation which causes jet black eyes and pale, grey skin.

5: They are quiet, prefers keeping to themselves and seem to be largely humourless.

Those last two makes it overwhelmingly likely makes them either Raven Guard or Night Lords, but I prefer the Night Lords theory because of the aforementioned feel of penance I get from them and because of the Carcharodon combat doctrine diverges from the Raven Guard to the extent that it does: i.e., utterly refusing to give or accept surrender ("…we…surrender…By the mercy of the God-Emperor…the war is over…we have surrendered …" — Final Vox-intercept, Void Colony Sigard VII), the preference of melee combat over ranged and the Carcharodons adorning their power armour with horrific death imagery (their Scrimshaw Talismans Chapter Trapping).

Lightbringer said:

This is a good point, but if my theory is correct, then I'd say that the Carcharodons being Loyalist Night Lords is a well-thought out part of their demeanour and culture, and not a cheap way to make them "interesting".

I'm kind of in Lightbringer's camp in that having loyalist Chapters with traitor geneseed gets old very fast, and is pretty old by now as I see it. Everything that can be explained with traitor geneseed can be done with loyalist, and every cultural thing that one can adopt from the traitor Legions one can bring to loyalist Chapters without needing the geneseed.

Emperor Castaigne makes a good case for the Space Sharks, and I agree in regards to the Blood Ravens, but I think that while I agree with the Blood Ravens I'm more in favor of having the Space Sharks as coming from a loyalist Legion.

And to bring matters to an entirely new level, in terms of rules I usually says that a Chapter with an Unknown Primarch has a 20% chance of having some deficiency with their geneseed. But I don't know how other people do.

@Emperor Castaigne

Wow, some good points about Space Sharks, don't know how it hadn't accurred to me. I automatically kind of accepted them being Raven Guard because of pale skin and black eyes and forgot that Curze was also pretty similar in outlook. This pleases me greatly.

@Lightbringer

I get what you are saying. Just because some chapter shares a particular doctrine or modus operandi like some traitor legion from distant past doesn't necessarily means they descend from them. Of course you could explain ruthlessness of Sharks by saying they come from a loyalist branch, have gene-seed deficiency etc., but at the same time isn't it interesting to speculate? I mean, it's good to speculate about fluff, at least for me, that something that big as traitor legion gene-seed (non corrupt) is present in the current M41. Just opens up great stories and possibilities in my opinion.

Anyway, thank you for your input so far, it gave me just a proper idea how to modify The Shadow of Madness premade adventure in GM's kit.

while exceptions may and probly should exist for specific, near-unique plotlines, it seems to me there can NOT be any loyalists descended from traitors for the very, very simple fact that ALL traitor geneseed was stasis-sealed and timelocked. Simple lazy authors and poor writing has lead to this dearth of "loyalists descended from traitors" shtuff….only the Dark Angels have this particular angle really covered. Just cause a chapter doesn't know its history and founder does not automatically mean that they're mysterious traitors with a second chance….it just means that, hey, they've been around for thousands of years and have forgotten/lost some history, probably due to some major, chapter-shaking event that darn near wiped them out….now, what event? what happened to shake an entire chapter to its foundations? THAT's a cool story…could go 1001 different ways with it - instead of just the lame ol' tired "we're descended from traitors!!!" schtick….We want better writers, dammit!!

Traitor successors isn't unprecidented, the Grey Knights came from Death Guard loyalists according to the fluff. The problem is when everybody is from traitor stock does a unique chapter become cliche. There are other ways to make a custom chapter, the Steel Confessors were created by the AM in secret. Missing chapters (especially after time dilations from the warp) make for a good way to make a new chapter. Just don't do a Drizz't, just because one type of chapter becomes popular don't make the rest of them the same.

The Glen said:

The Grey Knights aren't descended from the Death Guard. Their geneseed is derived from the Emperor. A mix of loyalists, including Marines from Legions that went traitor, formed the membership and leadership of what would become the Grey Knights when Malcador began organizing what would become the Inquisition. One of them was Garro of the Death Guard.

Zappiel said:

This is my stance as well. I created a custom Chapter of Imperial Fists decent. Their combat doctrine diverges quite a bit from the Fists, focussing on terror tactics & psychological warfare. In some ways they might seem more like the Raven Guard. This has a lot to do with their homeworld & its cultural mores. In any case, as I was creating them, I noticed that they had quite a bit in common with the Night Lords. This was not my intention, but it evolved that way. So I added in that my Chapter sees themselves as filling the niche left open by the Night Lords' betrayal. This effectively created "loyalist Night Lords" without dipping into the forbidden gene seed.

And for those who have a problem with a successor Chapter being radically different from it's parent, I leave you this to think about: In real life, my brother & I have NOTHING in common. We don't share any interests. Literally. And we grew up together, which is more than brother Chapters have to unite them!

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

so, FG: what're you saying? Please, be clear; because it sounds like yer saying that it's absolutely impossible for successors to diverge from their parent chapters, ever. Is that what yer saying? Law of Averages dictates that successor chapters cannot diverge from progenitors? I'm curious to see your supporting material…..

Zappiel said:

Zappiel said:

Has this ever been elaborated upon in novels of fluff, or is there just that one sentence from page 9 of the Ultramarines 2nd Edition Codex:

"The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks had been destroyed."

That sentence opens up so many story hooks. Who ordered it sealed? Was all the the traitor geneseed sealed, or did they miss any stores? For how long were the timelocks set for? Who knew about these stores?

My interpretation is that the fact that the geneseed was stored away in secret rather than destroyed is a good argument that there were plans on trying to found new Chapters using Traitor Legion geneseed at some point in the future.

Another way to use chapters bearing traitor geneseed: Berserker Chapters

If the Imperium does retain gene-stocks from the Traitor Legions, it’s an interesting exercise to speculate what they might use it for.

Let’s say that the Imperium, if given a choice, would always prefer to use the stable, reliable Ultramarine geneseed (I call it the Ultra Helix.) for Chapters who are active within its boundaries. If that geneseed is not available, or in short supply (a rare occurrence) there is geneseed from other loyalist first founding Legions available. So why would they use traitor geneseed at all?

Perhaps they retain stocks of traitor geneseed to use in what I would term “berserker” chapters.

Berserker Chapters

A “Berserker” chapter is one that is designed to be utilised in an all-out assault on a single, overwhelmingly powerful enemy objective, in a conflict which the chapter is not expected to survive. Equipped with second line, poorer quality equipment (old patterns of armour, mothballed, unreliable vessels, captured pirate frigates rather than warships etc.) than a “normal” chapter, and possibly smaller in size than a codex chapter, berserker chapters are expected to destroy the enemy and themselves.

The chapter is built from the ground up with this objective in mind, and as such there are a number of options available to Imperial forces in selecting the geneseed available. If they want to grind an opponent down in a protracted campaign, Death Guard geneseed is a good choice. If they want to use a berserker chapter for a simple direct assault, then World Eaters geneseed is a good choice. If they want to utilise a small berserker chapter who can do maximum damage in a brutal campaign of running battles, Night Lord geneseed might be utilised, and so on.

The Imperium doesn’t trust the Berserker chapters, and doesn’t want them to remain active within its territory at the end of their campaign. So one imagines that a number of measures have been taken to ensure that they are totally dependent upon the Imperium. Perhaps their ships are rigged to explode if regular signals are not received from Terra. Perhaps the marines have all been secretly injected with a slow poison, and must regularly consume an antidote provided in their food. Or perhaps they all bear implanted cortex bombs designed to snuff out their lives at the first sign of rebellion.

Berserker chapters are likely led by a cadre of marine officers who do not bear traitor geneseed, who are tasked with carefully watching their charges in action for sign of genetic deviance or warp taint. These marines-probably from very loyal and stable chapters like the ultramarines-are at once the commanders, gaolers and executioners of the Berserkers under their charge.

Key to the operation of the Berserker chapters is that the marines themselves are ignorant of the history of their geneseed, and regard themselves as loyal and dutiful servants of the Imperium, bearing loyalist geneseed. They themselves don’t know the dark secret in their blood, instead regarding themselves as the Imperium’s penultimate line of defence, issued with special orders, standing ready to combat the greatest threats facing mankind.

Eternal guardians of the Imperium

Key to the operation of a (theoretical) berserker chapter is stasis technology. Using this technology, a chapter can be created during a period of peace, and then placed “on ice” in a stasis field until required. Understandably, the Imperium doesn’t want Chapters kicking around that use traitor geneseed, so they “store” berserker chapters in this way until required. One thing the galaxy does not lack is space…there are endless dead worlds, rogue planets and stable, empty star systems, where a chapter could be entombed in this way until required.

Stasis fields are expensive, so it’s not like an entire world would be placed in one; rather portions of a specially constructed, heavily automated chapter fortress would be set aside to “store” marines in stasis. Perhaps a number of small halls each containing 100 marines closely packed together within a stasis field would be used. The rest of the chapter fortress would stand empty and deserted, filled with vacuum-stored war material and silently panning automated sentry guns…until the call for battle from Terra closes down the stasis fields and stirs the Marines within.

One imagines that it is conceivable that the Segmentum Solar is ringed with silent worlds containing hidden fortresses filled with sleeping marines, ready to awaken at any time upon the order of the High Lords, to do cataclysmic battle with a deadly foe of the Imperium.

Alternatively, they may be stationed at the edges of the Halo Stars, ready to deal with any horror from beyond the galaxy that comes roiling out of deep space.

The Berserker Chapters are told that they are to stand ready for any one of a number of Doomsday scenarios, stored away like weapons to be used against some unknown enemy in the distant future. This knowledge-that they are the Imperium’s secret sentinels standing ready for the end times- gels well with the elitist, fanatical and martial mind-set of most marines, so Berserker Chapters swallow this lie without question. They are quite prepared to die in battle without a second thought. Were they to become aware that they bear traitor geneseed, and that they are not trusted to survive their first encounter with the enemy, it would undoubtedly shake their faith to the core.

The Lost Chapters

Taking the concept further, once could speculate that perhaps an entire founding consisted of such “berserker” chapters, perhaps one of the earlier, more mysterious foundings. If such a founding took place beyond living memory of the Horus Heresy, but before the Imperium became completely dominated by the religious mind-set promulgated by the Ecclesiarchy, then it is conceivable that there could have been a period where the High Lords of Terra might entertain the creation of such an “emergency” force. This might be more likely where the Imperium is facing pressure on its loyalist geneseed stocks, or where external threats seem all too real.

Given the long, confused history of the Imperium, one could further conceive of a situation where much of the Imperium has actually forgotten about the existence of many such chapters. Thus, powerful chapters of Marines whose services in these end days would be vital are lost, through simple neglect and ignorance.

Key features of a Berserker Chapter

-Smaller than a Codex Chapter
-Unknown Geneseed
-Unknown Founding
-Equipped with equipment that is older or less effective than a normal chapter
-tendency and willingness (even eagerness) to engage in massive campaigns that are capable of completely destroying them
-Less emphasis upon recovering or carefully husbanding their geneseed than Codex chapters

Examples of potential Berserker Chapters

There are a couple of chapters from the canon who meet the profile of a Berserker Chapter. The Astral Knights are a notable example, destroying themselves and a vast Necron War planet in one apocalyptic battle in 926.M41. The fact that at the time of their destruction they numbered less than 1,000 marines and that little is known of their geneseed and founding fits the profile of a Berserker chapter. (Note I’m not suggesting they were intended to be a Berserker chapter when written – I’m merely observing that they neatly fit the concept I’m creating here.) In many ways this a classic example of how a Berserker Chapter should operate – bringing down a hugely powerful enemy (thus saving other, Codex chapters from destruction) and sacrificing themselves in the process.

Another good example that fits the profile is the Knights of Eternity, (p23 Codex Tyranids, 5th ed) who were wiped out by Hive Fleet Kraken. The fact that they were totally destroyed, that they were annihilated in action against a vast hive fleet, and their suggestive name (perhaps a reference to storage in stasis?) all point to a Berserker Chapter.

The Warhawks are another example, mentioned in the Liber Chaotica as having been destroyed during the 5th Black Crusade. Again, I’m not suggesting that the writer who created them intended them to fit my profile, just that they do now! The Warhawks were completely destroyed in a massive battle against forces that repeatedly return to plague the Imperium. It seems logical that Berserker chapters would be stationed around the Eye of Terror. Furthermore, their name seems to link to the War Hounds, the old name for the World Eaters.

Adventure hooks

One can imagine dozens of potential adventure hooks that could arise from the concept of a Berserker chapter. Here are a few thoughts:-

-The players suddenly encounter an unknown chapter bearing unique heraldry they are not familiar with. This chapter is, unknown to the players, a Berserker chapter accidentally awakened within the Jericho Reach. The Chapter follows its standing orders and prepares to engage in a massive, all out, suicidal assault on the nearest concentration of enemy forces, whether Tyranid, Chaotic or Tau. How do the players react to this situation? Do they stand back and let the Berserkers work? Do they assist them? Or do they try and convince them to use their energies more constructively, for the good of the wider Imperium? How do then players react to the discovery that the chapter bears traitor geneseed? This could be a combat heavy adventure, where the players accompany the Berserkers into battle, and see first-hand how aggressive and violent they are!

-Following on from the above scenario, perhaps the players end up working with a Berserker chapter that has survived its suicidal attack on the enemy. The players end up becoming close allies of the chapter. However, over time, they begin to notice that the tactics and mood of the chapter changes, becoming darker, more violent and more…chaotic. Do the players detect the slow poison of the Berserker chapter’s geneseed tainting them? How do they deal with the risk of an entire chapter of potential chaos marines suddenly being unleashed on the Jericho Reach? This would be an adventure with lots of roleplaying opportunities, and the chance for interaction with fellow marines, albeit very unusual ones.

-Or perhaps the players encounter evidence of the existence of a Berserker chapter in “mothballs” in the Jericho Reach, and must find out if the rumours about its existence are true or not. The players must conduct a secret investigation into the existence and whereabouts of the chapter. This would be a bit like a Dark Heresy campaign, with lots of investigation and a slow drip-drip reveal of terrible ancient secrets. Perhaps there are ancient sentinel cults of Imperial servants/chapter serfs watching over the sleeping marines who seek to oppose the players in their investigations? Perhaps the players discover that a force of Chaos renegades have also discovered the existence of the sleeping marines, and must race to stop them twisting them to their own devices?

-Alternatively, you could run a “historical” campaign, using one of the canon chapters above. The Astral Knights and Knights of Eternity are good examples for a Deathwatch game, as they faced Xenos opponents. The players could be ordered to travel to a remote, dead planetary system and awaken the marines within, instructing them upon the nature of their opponents and unleashing them upon the Imperium’s foes. They could even accompany them into battle to ensure that the maximum damage is done to the enemy. Depending upon the seniority of the players concerned, they might even be advised of the true nature of the Berserker Chapter’s geneseed, and trusted to do their duty to ensure that there are no survivors of the battle.

Anyway, there are a few thoughts on one way to use traitor geneseed in a loyalist chapter. Like I say in my earlier post above, I’m not actually that huge a fan of the concept, but this is one (relatively) logical way for a loyalist chapter to bear tainted geneseed!

I like the idea of Berserker chapters, though I think you might be reading too much into chapters wiped out. Marines have a strong sense of martial honour and if defeating a truly terrible enemy requires the sacrifice of the entire chapter, many Marines would do so.

That said, perhaps the Minotaurs are an experiment in a new type of high grade Berserker chapter? One where the instability problems have been worked out and they can be trusted (to a point) to play ball with the High Lords. It would explain the exceptionally high levels of hypnodoctrination they routinely perform on their battle brothers.

Decessor said:

Oh yes, you're absolutely right, I know I'm reading too much into things! I'm deliberately looking for canon chapters that fit my nebulous theoretical concept. And yes, you're absolutely right, chapters get wiped out all the time, it doesn't mean they're Berserker chapters. I'm really just looking for examples to inform my concept, to be honest.

As for the Minotaurs, yes, you could be right. We may know soon: rumour has it that their background will be explored in more detail in a forthcoming Forge World book.

Lightbringer: whew! for a concept yer not really a fan of, you sure did write one heckuva post!

(now, let's see you expound upon something you're passionate about! )

Not a big fan of the 'berzerker chapter' idear, but it's an interesting one…you've given folks a lot to chew on.

(yeah, for me, i'll put this one in the 'dornian heresy' group - interesting, intriguing even, but not strictly canon so nay for me)

Berserk chapter are not from trzitor legion genseed… Look at the flesh tearers…

Lots of chapters may have a beserk attitude even from loyalist chapter.

White scars, blood angels could be used to create that kind of chapter.

But even a chapter build with ultra helix could be a berserk chapter, the question is who order the chapter creation, how much of their inheritance they knew about?

Geneseed is a base but if the chapter is educated far from their brothers and without any knowledge of their past they could be train to became a berserk chapter.

The home world will be usefull too. Look at the Mortificators… not really Ultra marines.

You're misunderstanding my post… I'm positing a TYPE of chapter, a pattern of chapter, like Nomad-Predation, or Codex. I know a lot of chapters that are clearly based on loyalist legion geneseed are pretty crazy and berserk. What I'm suggesting is a specific type of chapter that uses traitor geneseed that I'm CALLING a berserk chapter. You might equally call it a kamikaze chapter, but the berserk name fits with 40k better.

Well It could also be a Fabious Bile infiltration again like he did on the Blood angels.

He switched around some geneseed to traitors one and gathers the loyalist ones.. Then the players ahevt o try and claim the good ones and decide what happens with this new infant chapter.

Or an desperate Apothicarie starts salvaging traitor geneseed because is own dying chapter is running very very low. He notes which one are normal and which ones are just canon fodder… insuring they never gain a place of power and insuring that no bad geneseed is sent as stock.

That secret is kept firmly inside the apothicaries of that chapter but at some point a fellow Apothicaries "saves" one of the bad geneseed and by automation does a corruption check on it, to discover…

The problem with that concept is that traitor geneseed is stored on Terra, and as such is not available to mere chapter apothecaries. Any new chapters using traitor geneseed are therefore going to have to have the backing of the High Lords of Terra.

It is possible that a loyalist chapter might overwhelm a renegade one who still have stocks of viable geneseed. This is far more likely for chapters that have turned renegade as opposed to outright traitor legions but even that is possible. Night Lords keep stocks of geneseed if not massive ones.

Lightbringer said:

In a combat zone, there maybe plenty of available traitor geneseeds… no one said that apothicarie was not going completely crazy from the lost inflicted on is chapter… that creates a nice black and white story… then they have to hunt down the apothicarie himself but as they corner him chaos try to recruit him with false promises, etc.

An Inquisitor having asses to something different also as an idea of creating some sort of hybrid (Thunder Warriors) and also tries to recruit the apothicarie… then a kill team is chapter comes by to finish him but not before he dies to save the kill team, only to inform them he failed, the leader of the 1st company, the aspiring chapters master as a traitor geneseed, he is a descendent of (choose yours favored).

Now what do you do? Kill the chapter? Let them live but monitor them? Help the inquisitor creating Thunder Warriors or destroy the recipe?