Hello,

Here is the deck I have played during the European Championship this Saturday (3rd place). Can you find the combo hiding in the list?

Agency
3- Logan
2- Federal Vault

Shub
1-Karin Marley
2-Twilight Cannibal
2-Hungry DY
3-Shocking Transformation
3-Thunder in the East
3-Grasping Cthonian
3-Altar of the Blessed
2-Necronomicon

Miska
3-Itinerant Scholar
3-Notebook Sketches
3-Museum Curator
3-Dr. Carson

Hastur
2-Cavern of the Flame
3-Infernal Obsession
3-Stygian Eye
3-Performance Artist
3-Predator Byakhee

I will comment it later.

Quite easy!

You play the curator turn one, search for an infernal obsession and take control of your own character. So obvious^^

I would say that you plan to sacrifice a lot of characters, give the Necronomicon to James Logan (who acquires it for free when he comes into play - perhaps through a Shocking Transformation), and then sacrifice James Logan to bring back all of your characters in one shot (this also readies them).

If you can't find James Logan, you have several other ways to search for support cards, so you can give it to another high skilled character (possibly augmenting their skill with Altar of the Blessed or Notebook Sketches).

Sounds like an interesting deck, I'll be looking forward to hearing about some of your matches with it.

i think i might have to see some other decks from the tournament for a broader perspective on what did well and why. i can only presume the meta there is different with a lot of destruction based decks going on, and that the cards you were relying on were present on the day.

my friend ran a very similar version of this, though from memory it had corrupted midwife for circulating the itinerant scholar in case the combo didnt hold, and also had torch the joint for more opponent resources control. it did ok but as there isnt such an emphasis on killing where i am the necronomicon isnt so valuable ( we learnt quickly about this card and how best to deal with it. just dont give them anything to recur !! haha ), which is i guess the source of my confusion. the recursion support destruction in our meta kinda killed the deck also, notebook sketches not withstanding a full shub onslaught ( im presuming here that is what you used it for as that is how my friend played it ).

i will say that it is suddenly interesting that this apparent difference in metas from region to region has an emphasis on what does well, and perhaps answers some of my questions on deck strengths and why i get so confused. what is dominant here might not do so well there, and what does well there might not do so well here. very interesting to me.

well done on the 3rd place ! you europeans do love your shock transformed logans with the flavour of the month attachment !! haha. look forward to more decks so i can get the bigger picture !!!

Well, I give you the candy:

• get the altar
• get the scholar or the byakhee in the graveyard
• get logan with the necronomicon

Then:

• since Logan has a +1 skill bonus, sacrifice it with the Necronomicon
• … and he will come back (confirmed by Damon), as well as the scholar or the byakhee
• sacrifice the scholar/the byakhee (recursing the scholar locks the opponent, provided your domain are all drained; recursing the byakhee discards your opponent's deck entirely)

Variant:

• Get the vault instead of the Altar and recurse the notebook sketches as well…

The combo is very stable. The rest of the deck is there to buy you time and get the cards on the table ASAP.

The deck is more autistic than it looks: the meta does not matters a lot unless it is a fast rushing environment (that it cannot stand). It does not care about destruction, bouncing, milling, controlling, etc. It only fears rush, snow graves and… bad luck

yes. it is a nice trick isnt it and good for shock value. thats the way my friend would win games initially, but we found that one mistimed performance artist / ward phillips / power drain / writhing wall on logans ability and the momentum was lost ( i should point out that the meta here at the moment revolves around stopping combos such as this and negating new cards as they come through, and this is what i find so interesting. one region seeks to exploit. the other to negate ).

a great surprise deck though and congrats on the find !!

B_P said:

Its because of these brilliant insights you must have become Europian champion.

Congrats again btw.

mzi said:

Maybe its just me, but I find it strange that when sacrificing a character you can get it back with the same action. However, I should have known this as when playing with Konx he used a same kind of combo with Naaginn and Khopesh attached to it. (wounding Naaginn with Khopesh, finally destroy it and immediately get it back into play). Till then I never thought it was possible. Unfortunately, when witnessing the combo at that time I did not make the link with Logan.

It just feels unlogic to me. But the rules (and Damon) seem to be clear on this.

I also played Logan at the European Championship with necronomicon (and Khopesh or yuggoth contract) but did not use the infinite combo as MZI did. I had thought about giving it extra skill with "Springfield M1903" to get even Ancient one's (with skill 6) back into play (not knowing Logan also would come back)

Darkman said:

yes. that must be why i dont do so well. i presumed the idea was to shock transform logan in with stygian eye and infernal obsession and DOUBLE control yourself.

i will add that it was hilarious when we had our fortnightly cthulhu meet up after the last AP was released. everyone turned up with their 'orginal' necronomicon / altar of the blessed combos in various forms and played this return the sacrificed character as well trick but as stated the combos dont do so well here as of course we systematically set about breaking the idea at the same time.

Logan can come back because you sacrifice it as a cost for the Necronomicon action. A cost is always fully paid before the effect initiates. Hence, Logan is in the discard pile and the Necronomicon has been shuffled back in the deck before zombies come back.

The only question I would have been unsure about is whether in-play Skill boosts still applied because he's in the discard pile now - it's a timing thing. But if Damon says that's how it works then that's how it works.

mzi said:

Heres hoping I don't get in too much trouble for this. (posting from work since I can't from my smart phone and I've been without a working PC for awhile now)

Mzi… this is very important. What exactly did Damon say when you gave you this ruling and how was your question asked?

I ask because I asked Damon about this very same subject and got a exactly the opposite answer. I'm willing to bet yours is more current than mine, but I think we need to make absolute sure as it completely changes the dynamic of the format in my opinion.

Side note. Congrats on performance. Well done. Congrats to Damien as well for winning and hope to all the worldly travelers in a few days for some good times!

Magnus Arcanis said:

Or maybe it would be more to the point to just give Damon a description of the whole situation and ask if it works or not?

Either way though, I think it's a good idea to make certain on this one and if I might add, put the answer officially into the FAQ as well.

dboeren said:

Agreed! I've sent emails to both accounts I have for Damon. Does anyone have one for Eric? (i thought I did, but can't seem to find it)

With so little time between now and Worlds…. this is huge. Also, for the record heres what I recieved some time ago.

My Question:

"With both of those cards in play [refering to Alter of the Blessed and the Shub Necronomicon mentioned in the subject], when I sac the attached character and shuffle the necro back into the deck do I put the character I sac'd back into play? As when I triggered the effect it would've had a higher skill than it would in the discard pile?"

Damon's Answer:

"No. When the Necronomicon triggers it requires you to sacrifice the character, shuffle the Necronomicon into your deck, and designate all characters in your discard pile for return "with less skill than the attached character." This is the kicker. Because it says attached and not discarded character we know that the game state is checked during the triggering of the effect not during the resolution of the effect.

This is the same as how you must select any targets at the time of triggering an effect. In this case the game is checking all units that will hit by the effect at the time of triggering."

Once again, this is assumingly an older answer than what Mzi has gotten. Which is why I ask, nay, plead for a speedy confirmation.

I used a Nero-Altar combination, and confirmed its use with Damon, on October 22, as follows.

I asked:

Please confirm that I have understood the following situation correctly:

1. Altar of the Blessed is in play. (The text box Reads: "Characters you control get +1 skill".)

2. I legally attach The Necronomicon: Olaus Wormius Translation to one of my characters that is in play. In particular, to a Ghoulish Predator (whose skill is currently 4+1=5).

3. I initiate the Necronomicon's action: "Sacrifice attached character and shuffle The Necronomicon back into your deck to put into play all characters from your discard pile with less skill than the attached character."

4. There in no disruption and there is no Snow Graves on my discard pile, etc.

5. The Necronomicon's action resolves and I put into play all characters from my discard pile with skill 4 or less, including the just sacrificed Ghoulish Predator (whose skill after being sacrificed and entering the discard pile is 4).

It take the crucial fact to be that while the Ghoulish Predator is in play under my control, he has skill 5 (due to the Alter). After he enters the discard pile, he has skill 4, since he is no longer a character that I control.

Damon responded:

"There was a small change to the rules roughly two months ago, for timing purposes, that has made this the way the cards works.

The cards involved are under examination to see if it creates an unbalancing effect on the game."

Dark Initiate said:

I would say that we now have evidence that it could cause an unbalancing effect. Allowing characters to bring themselves back into play is an invitation to create loops, which runs counter to how the game generally works today.

dboeren said:

Agreed.

Sorry to be late. Here is the exact message I have sent:

On Oct 16, 2012, at 2:01 AM, mzi wrote:

Hello Damon,I have a small question about the new Shubb Necronomicon. I intend to play it at the upcoming European tournament as a "surprise effect"."""Action: Sacrifice attached character andshuffle The Necronomicon back into yourdeck to put into play all characters from yourdiscard pile with less skill than the attachedcharacter."""Say that I have it attached to a character and that "Altar of the Blessed" is in play.If I initiate the action, the character has a +1 skill bonus at that moment. I pay the cost and it is put in my discard pile. At this moment, the character has no skill bonus.Then, the effect is applied: does this very character come back into play? I would say yes, because its skill is lower thant the one it had at the moment the action was initiated.Thank you in advance for your answer.Best,-- mzi

Here is Damon's answer:

"""There has been a rules change that makes this a legal play. Enjoy it because the card will receive errata which will not allow for it to work with the next FAQ update. """I must say that I cannot see what rule change Damon was talking about.

OK, so it's already being taken care of, but not until after Worlds.

I guess I can see both sides of this. On one end, if there's a known rules loophole, I'd want it closed as soon as possible. On the other, you don't want to change a major ruling shortly before Worlds because people may be relying on it in their decks and there's insufficient time to redesign.

I personally prefer having alternative ways to win rather than an errata on this (I am fed up with cards that don not play the way they say they do).

Contrary to the 1st turn Large Man + An offer… deck (which is no longer playable), it is not impossible to win against this combo: just be prepared. Moreover, the combo relies on three cards to be truly deadly: a stable skill enhancer + Logan + a locker. It is well known that three-card combos cannot handle rushing decks very well — and I lost to a rushing deck indeed during the tournament.

This combo requires shocking transformation and any character to sacrifice… not that hard to do.

Still i get the feeling that combo decks will be seeing more and more play with cards like Jamburg and new MU search - A Voros Hal'l Jon (choose 2 cards from deck, really sweet for any combo idea).

Still one effect cancel, Eryn or new MU guy who staels suports, shub's event, etc and its stopped. Internant scholar makes it much much stronger, but you'll have to find him.

If tests show its too hard to stop i'm happy for errata (espacialy with this MU prophecy getting 2 internant scholars it would be crazy).

" Allowing characters to bring themselves back into play is an invitation to create loops, which runs counter to how the game generally works today."

I don't really see, especially with cards like Uroborus that literally allow themselves to be endlessly recycled. Its just a matter of "can this be stopped with reasonable effort". I wonder what exactly will change.

The easy fix would be to peg the Shubb Necronomicon's action to *printed* skill.

Okay, maybe it is me… I love loops soo much