MegaGeese said:

My 51st rank at the ECC 2008 says your statement is WRONG. ;p

MegaGeese said:

Enlightment did have a 1, it was broken cause it didnt work as intended (you couldnt ready it because the ability couldnt be used while committed)

MOST of thoes cards you listed I would have been ok with and would have considered them balanced if they had a 1 check.

- Kubi ori decks only worked because you didnt need to run less than a 3 to kill with them, if it had a 1 it would have broke the loop on its own merits.
- Gaki would have been fine with a 1 check, because like Kubi ori thoes decks ran on not running anything below a 3
- Injury assets were pretty degenerate, mostly because of the Damage vs Damage ruling that came out that kinda made them more broken, but with a 1 check I dont think that they would have been banned, or perhaps only broken leg would have because the redundancy was part of the problem.
- To the bone wouldnt have been as much of an issue if it had a one cause any loop your gonna run with it in your CP was gaurenteed to need more than a 1 check to pass, yet another example of a combo that needed 3+ checks to happen.
- Revit with a 1 check, im not sure but I think you can ask Omar if that card would have done what it did for him if it had a 1, or if he would have even used it.
- Turbo is perhaps the only card on that list that couldnt be balanced out with a 1, and even that im not sure about because im so far removed from that card.

Control check is a balancing factor. A 1 check is supposed to be a balance to a card, and in almost all situations it will balance an otherwise overpowered card. A broken card is a card that dosent work as expected or whos powerlevel is not in the same field as other cards (IE cards that give fatal damage pumps versus cards taht say I win if you deal damage). Feline spike works EXACLTY as expected, ie its not broken. I personally dont think the risk of losing the game because I check it turn one is worth the reward and Im confident that as more cards are added to the format spike will start to float away.

I think Feline Spike might have been balanced if it was a 0 check. Or if the Multiples enhance was Felicia only. A 1 check however sure as hell doesn't balance it.

Protoaddict said:

Only thing that's broken is that there's really no equivalent. THAT's the real "broken" part. If you don't want to chance it, there's no real alternative to Spike out there.

so, set 12 will slow down feline spike's power? this amuse me...

if you can't win against a feline spike deck then you need to quit ufs. it's no wear near as good as high plasma beam or css ever was. chain throw absurd is even better. it's a 7/1 it better be good for god's sake. why don't you run rejection, holding ground, fight or flight, or any other form of reduction life gain. this card is not auto win. why don't you run ken's shotokan to hate on momentum, board tap and cc hax means feline spike NEVER gets played. srsly you guys need to learn how to meta game properly. if one card is every where then why not hate on it?? b/c you are scrubby and would rather run a damage pump/speed pump?? learn how to meta game and all these stupid cards you hate will get beat by your stupid cards that your opp hates. LEVEL UP YOUR CARDBOARD POWERS!

Not everybody wants to play the same cards/deck/symbols

also, there are players who still think they are in high play during casual play... you should watch those ones closely.

i know but there is hate on f spike on tons of sybols. fight or flight lols at it, holding ground lols at it. rejection lols at it. death seal LOLS at it hard. brt lols at it, forethought lols at it. etc.

edit, how could i forget no memories and silver spoon. 4/4's but hey if they let you live, go for it.

Admiral Ren said:

There are well more than one way to counter spike. if you cant find a method that suits you then sorry but maybe your just being too needy.

CCHax stops it
Battle Prowless loves it
Reversals (other than spike as well) hurt it.
Rejection, Healer, FIght or Flight, DHolding ground Hurt it

EVIL DOER DESTORYER
IKARI WARRIOR
KENS SHOTOKAN
SAKURA
Mujin Kyaku + karin make anyone playing spike seem like a total idiot on every level.
watching your opponents own dumb luck as they check it first turn and lose because of that also beats it, you dont even need to play cards for this one.

There are plenty of ways for whatever particular playstyle you wanna claim that deal with it. Personally my playstyle is the one that wins, and i dont see checking a 1 and losing first turn as a valid winning strategy. Personally I think Kaz reppa hands down is a million time better than spike for a multitude of reasons.

Whoops. I missed Enlightenment already having a 1. Doh.

How about this, then? A comparison. Darkness Blade, Feline Spike, and Unholy Terror. For the sake of having a control group, I'll add in Midnight Pleasure.

Darkness Blade - this card features a high damage in tandem with good speed and being off-zone. Its effect enables the user to potentially tap out an opponent's entire staging area; the Reversal keyword enables that on their turn. It also features a very nice block. All things considered, the difficulty of 7 and the one-check are essentially required to help balance out its power level. And it is just that - a good, solid, powerful, but well-balanced card. Risk vs. reward and all that, right?

Unholy Terror is a throw with a base damage of ten. That alone is enough to raise an eyebrow or two. Mitigating factors here would be the high difficulty and low speed of the attack. Its printed ability discards an opponent's entire momentum; given that there are plenty of easier ways to do this, it's not all that useful. This could very well have seen a two-check. But instead, as a one, it goes from playable to just decent. This card is nowehere near Darkness Blade's level of power. No block, even.

Feline Spike can place 24 damage on the table with one enhance (at the cost of two momentum). This damage is spread across three attacks; as such, damage reduction is much less effective against it than a single attack (see Darkness Blade/Unholy Terror). Additionally, it is able to be played on the opponent's turn; it forces the opponent to commit foundations; and it also features an enhance that prevents it or its copies from being discarded from the card pool. Its high difficulty of seven mitigates that only slightly. But the one check does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it a balanced card. In short - by calling it "balanced", that term must also apply to Unholy Terror; heck, because Terror doesn't have a block, it's at a statistical disadvantage, so, logically, Unholy Terror is *better* than Feline Spike.

And that is utter rubbish.

Finally, Midnight Pleasure. This attack features a base damage of ten and a base speed of seven. It adds in a Powerful rating and the ability to leech off the opponent's momentum when playing that ability. It is a very solid attack. However, it has a difficulty of eight...but a control of two. Because the two-check is easier on a player than the one of Spike (and an added difficulty of one is easier to handle than the lower check...not to mention the potential to one-shot any opponent), theoretically, this attack must be better than Spike. And yet it doesn't see very much play. Hm...

I'm not arguing that Spike is broken; it's not. What it IS is somewhat unbalanced. I will continue to argue the point that a one-check does NOT balance it out (because it certainly does NOT) until this argument dies for good.

PS: I don't have an issue with Spike. Just the opinion that a low check can balance a card out. Aslum is correct, I think - a zero would have made it balanced. But the simplest solution to it is that enhance referencing the card pool; Felicia E it and there would never be a need for another Spike thread ever.

PPS: A one-check would not stop Ukyo from finishing you turn one with Kasumi Gaki and you know it. Kubi Ori would also not have been even slightly balanced out by a 1. Why? Because it's already a TWO. One more Shinobi Tradition out to pass the checks for you is *such* an imposition. Though I think Happy Holidays would have been my best example here; can't believe I forgot it >_<

I have too, no issue with spike. i actually stopped playing but whilling to build a deck for a random game or two.

The thing is, this is a game. Yet, strategy, building skills and such but comes also luck. Yes you can manipulate your luck but to which extent? Allright, maindecking counters can do the job. but i have played games where mulligan wasn't enough to get them. This happen. I'm pretty sure i'm not alone. Then we have the counters to counters. No skills can fix that, you are the first to pull them out? Congratulation you win!

Nobody have noticed that the speech is still the same? next set will change it, play x card or else, counters maindeck them... and it goes on. Recently lot of topics asking how was the game popped everywhere. While, topics like this one, is paradoxal to what players will answer to those potential new players in the other topics.

I agree that something should be "felicia something" on FS. Do the errata on Rolling Storm forced any of you to play Talim?

I feel like i'm missing some points. oh well.

(Kaz reppa is made of win, i almost won a game against Link with that...ask him i play like a unlucky retard)

What the hell is Kaz reppa?

and why are we still on this subject?

I was simply stating how overpriced the card was; Not how unbalanced/overpowered it is.

MegaGeese said:

If you need one more shinobi out, you also need to deal with one more chance to roll a fatal one and having your turn end. If you need a 2 to pass the gaki and you roll a gaki, your turn ends or you commit ukyo and that stops the kill anyways. 1 checks have problems, pure and simple. These combos speak to me more of the power of Ukyo and shinobi tradition more than thoes cards, 2 well known and documented offenders who have been on the fence for eons.

That being said, im not sure that we should all be saying feline is overpowered for a 1 check because what if all thoes are cards are under powered for a 1 check. Truth be told I would never use darkness blade or the like because i dont consider them that good, even if they had 2 checks i would have pause for though before including them. I would use spike even though its a 1 check when compaired to all of them sure.

I think the problem is the range of control. Theres only 6 control checks we utilize in the game, and concievable each should be its own power tier. 6es should be crap that you can include for the check down to 1 that should win games when played because the check loses you the game. Granted we use difficutly to help balance this all out, but then we pigeon hold ourselves with attacks by only using the 1-3 range for control (with a few exceptions).

I dont think spike merits a 0 check. In most cases I think a player will find that either is fatal when checked, at least where it matters. Its like how they are trying to balance out 7HS characters by on average lowering the vit, but that more often than not dosent matter because either they win before life is relevant or they lose to something that could do 19 damage as well as it could do 30. Raising it's difficulty to an 8 or more I think more likley would have been the answer because it slows it down and makes you need more foundations to pass it. More foundations means you need to make more checks early on to get them, more checks means greater chance you hit a spike and have a fatal turn.

vyexcel said:

Kuzuyu Reppa, Ken's Starter Deck rare attack from Domination.

and people like to complain about Spike.

MegaGeese said:

I agree with pretty much everything said here. Like I said earlier in the thread, if Spike's multiple immunity enhance was Felicia only, the card would be balanced in my eyes, but it would still be extremely solid and worth running.

I think the reason Midnight Pleasure doesn't see much play is mainly because of the symbols it has. Chaos, Earth, and Life don't see alot of play these days, although I am loving chaos. Also I think the card should have had Powerful 2 or 3 instead of just Powerful 1. Either that or take away the cost of commiting 2 foundations to use the enhance that lets you use your opponents momentum.

Its a 7/1 and its just a card. What makes it powerful as people say it is is the thought and effort of the player. You give it to a rook and its about as powerful as weak slash.

quarzark said:

Reppa is NOWHERE near the power level of Spike.

And I mean NOWHERE.

In order for it's ability to go off, the regular copy needs to go through. It's a mid of 4. Incredibly easy to full block. I can easily name more situations where my Reppa's didn't give me cards from it's effect.

It's a 6 diff for 12 dmg potential of mid 4s. Spike is a 7 difficulty of 28 dmg potential with a high zone of 4 and the ability to protect it's multiple copies with a stun AND reversal.

Just...yeah. There's nothing to complain about in Reppa at all. Rather, praise its existence. Void certainly does.

My thoughts on Reppa are found HERE

GiantThighLover said:

Eat some meat.

Antigoth said:

You talk about akuma to push reppa thru.

I like Zhai Daiyo to push anything thru

Akuma has +1 on handsize, but Zhai Daiyo effectively lowers the opps handsize by 1...

Smazzurco said:

Truth...

The deck where I used Akuma, It started as Scott Mence, and sandbagged into Akuma. I also ran ZD for alternate sandbagging purposes. I'll have to give it a shot.

Or you can just use Ways of Punishment/Glare to push it through then draw all the cards you discarded back.

Sol Badguy said:

Didn't every deck in the void event run 4 tendon strength ?

Of course, but that doesn't mean you always had it out.

Scubadude said:

the only two decks at my local tourney that didnt came in the last 2 spots