Concerns about House of Dreams

By Skowza, in 1. AGoT General Discussion

finitesquarewell said:

Very purposefully leaving alone the messy issues of opportunity cost and how to evaluate the printed and unprinted drawbacks on House of Dreams:


(1) The most evident of the things I've learned in my time playing AGOT is that no individual player or group of players has any ability to consistently predict anything whatsoever about what the meta will look like more than eight or nine months from the present. And I mean no one: not the designers, not the playtesters; neither the world's most skilled competitive players and rules lawyers nor any otherwise intuitive collection of forums goers. From this viewpoint, the more predictive of the "worries" expressed about such a game-changing card as House of Dreams read as hubris at its most obvious.


(2) Corey -- along with Dobbler, likely the most skilled player in the history of the game (and, outside of a brief period in summer 2011, likely the least caring) -- put immense effort into preparing for the 2011 AGOT World Championship, and his payoff was the game's most prestigious prize: an opportunity to design a card to his liking. He chose to create, in consultation with the game's designers, a card that attempts to push the game in a direction of his liking. If an individual finds the card he chose to design personally distasteful, I suggest that that player channel his or her displeasure into practicing the game, win a major championship title, and design a card that effectively counters House of Dreams, should the card be demonstrated to have a negative impact on the environment after the meta has a chance to adjust to its presence. Or, hell, even if it turns out not to be negative; win a world championship and work with the designers to take the game in some other direction that suits you. Attempting to sway the opinions of the tiny minority of FFG's AGOT customer base represented by us forums goers -- concerning a card that may very well be enjoyed by a less forums-vocal yet very large majority of players -- seems about as purposeful a mission as that of the truth-seeking troublemakers who started the Damon/Penfold thread. gui%C3%B1o.gif The already ridiculously lengthy and overwhelmingly positive discussion over on agotcards.org is some indication.

Update: various edits for clarity

TD;DR (Too Douchey, didn't read).

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

dcdennis said:

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

No, not "EXACTLY" the card they want. The card should still be balanced. Are you saying if I win a World Championship, I should be able to have something like Jaqen H'ghar printed without any power checking?

phoenixember said:

dcdennis said:

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

No, not "EXACTLY" the card they want. The card should still be balanced. Are you saying if I win a World Championship, I should be able to have something like Jaqen H'ghar printed without any power checking?

yes :)

phoenixember said:

dcdennis said:

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

No, not "EXACTLY" the card they want. The card should still be balanced. Are you saying if I win a World Championship, I should be able to have something like Jaqen H'ghar printed without any power checking?

It sounds like you are assuming designers do not check for power level of champion designed cards. I don't doubt that there is a lot of back and forth in an attempt to fit the card into the game and in an attempt to balance the card. Obviously if a champ wants to create a card that says "You claim 15 power. Cannot be canceled." then FFG will tell them to go pound sand and to submit a different idea.

Bomb said:

phoenixember said:

dcdennis said:

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

No, not "EXACTLY" the card they want. The card should still be balanced. Are you saying if I win a World Championship, I should be able to have something like Jaqen H'ghar printed without any power checking?

It sounds like you are assuming designers do not check for power level of champion designed cards. I don't doubt that there is a lot of back and forth in an attempt to fit the card into the game and in an attempt to balance the card. Obviously if a champ wants to create a card that says "You claim 15 power. Cannot be canceled." then FFG will tell them to go pound sand and to submit a different idea.

No, i'm not assuming that at all. I know the designers were part of the process. I also know the DC Meta has openly admitted in another thread to fudging the playtesting process to get this card printed as it is.

Wait, what do you mean "fudging the playtest process?"

phoenixember said:

Bomb said:

phoenixember said:

dcdennis said:

rings said:

….. but that doesn't give anyone some sort of right to make whatever [card] they want.

…..isn't that EXACTLY what winning affords you?

No, not "EXACTLY" the card they want. The card should still be balanced. Are you saying if I win a World Championship, I should be able to have something like Jaqen H'ghar printed without any power checking?

It sounds like you are assuming designers do not check for power level of champion designed cards. I don't doubt that there is a lot of back and forth in an attempt to fit the card into the game and in an attempt to balance the card. Obviously if a champ wants to create a card that says "You claim 15 power. Cannot be canceled." then FFG will tell them to go pound sand and to submit a different idea.

No, i'm not assuming that at all. I know the designers were part of the process. I also know the DC Meta has openly admitted in another thread to fudging the playtesting process to get this card printed as it is.

wow, that is a ******* serious accusation that you need to back up with a link unless i can casually mention where you "openly admitted" to your hobby of cutting the tails off kittens in that same thread.

Having seen phoenixember's collection of kitten tails, I can confirm.

imrahil327 said:

Having seen phoenixember's collection of kitten tails, I can confirm.

I hate kittens. And if I can find the link, i'll happily post it. Unfortunately, I do have a life and a job, so I don't have all day to spend data mining the forums for it. If anyone else knows where it is, please by all means help me out here. I know i'm not the only one that's said as much.

phoenixember said:

Unfortunately, I do have a life and a job, so I don't have all day to spend data mining the forums for it.

loser :P

phoenixember said:

imrahil327 said:

I don't have all day to spend data mining the forums for it.

So you only had just enough time to throw out the accusation? Weak sauce.

I forget which Champion it was, but somebody asked Damon to make a Martell card for the son of Dagos Manwoody.

*looks up character name…*

Damon: No, you cannot make a card named "Dickon Manwoody."

Grimwalker said:

I forget which Champion it was, but somebody asked Damon to make a Martell card for the son of Dagos Manwoody.

*looks up character name…*

Damon: No, you cannot make a card named "Dickon Manwoody."

I guess Damon wants that design all to himself?

Grimwalker said:

I forget which Champion it was, but somebody asked Damon to make a Martell card for the son of Dagos Manwoody.

*looks up character name…*

Damon: No, you cannot make a card named "Dickon Manwoody."

Yes the game is really missing that. that and Sea *****, Golden Storm and Joso's Cock.

Ire said:

Grimwalker said:

I forget which Champion it was, but somebody asked Damon to make a Martell card for the son of Dagos Manwoody.

*looks up character name…*

Damon: No, you cannot make a card named "Dickon Manwoody."

Yes the game is really missing that. that and Sea *****, Golden Storm and Joso's Cock.

Where is Hot Pie?

Saturnine said:

Ratatoskr said:

Saturnine said:

and an immunity that probably in a majority of the games won't matter.

Why wouldn't the immunity matter in a majority of games? It seems to me the immunity matters a great deal.

Only a fraction of the houses have strong in-house location control. And I got the impression neutral (event-based) location control wasn't played as much. But I'm a bit out of the loop, so maybe I'm misreading the meta game. The most popular location control recently seems to have come from running Newly Made Lord. The immunity against that is certainly a boon. But considering the pool of eligible locations, the immunity is more likely to protect a gimmicky location, rather than one that if lost cripples your game, with a few exceptions (Baratheon Wall is probably one that will become more popular, even though there have already been builds utilizing it here and there).

I'm not gonna claim that nobody will find some very strong new deck types utilizing this agenda. That's sort of the point of an agenda, no? I don't see this agenda displacing any of the current strong decks with different agendas (in terms of strength, though as a new shiny, we probably will see a meta shift in terms of quantity of decks, with all the skewed tourney results that this often entails). But I don't see it as having anywhere near the utility of the TMP agenda. You get one location. It sits there, it does its thing. Mostly like many decks without this agenda, really.

I don't get what people want. Another White Book?

That's completely false. The immunity part makes the card broken in the current environment. I see plenty of location control, especially now that KothH Martell sees more play. Frozen Solid, Condemned by the Council and Newly Made Lord (even OOH). And the problem aren't gimmicky locations like the cities of minor houses (Starfall, Dreadfort), the problem are cards that give ongoing ressource and CA. The best example is Bear Island (in my playtesting the strongest card with this Agenda). BI is normally fine, because you have to make your ressource producing locations worse and even if you play it 3 times (which gives the possibility of getting it more than once=dead card) there is a high chance that you don't or too late get it (which leaves you with a weak location base or card disadvantage through Building Season). Now with HoD you basicly get one gold, BI that you want to see every game, that isn't answerable until T4 as long as the player plays high initiative cards (because of Search and Detain, which will backfire then) and only with a very sub-optimal plot list. Plus HoD can't backfire like Summer, Winter and KotR and doesn't have to dedicate deckslots like Summer and Winter to potential dead cards.

Dammit! You mean we're never going to get a Dickon Manwoody card?! That's it, screw this game, I'm out!

(I'm kinda glad that I wouldn't've had to look up the character's name. Who could forget Dickon Manwoody?)