I got to mulling this over yesterday, and one of the things I did like about how Saga Edition handled Force usage was that it took several rather common aspects of the Force, things that in OCR/RCR you needed to buy dedicated skill ranks in or WEG had to select as powers, and made them by default a part of the Use the Force skill, things such as very basic telekinesis (trained only), telepathy, sensing the Force (trained only), a Force trance (trained only), ignoring concealment, and searching your feelings.

Well, what if in EotE, a character with Force Rating 1 has access to some of these "fundamental Force abilities?" Certainly not all of them, but a couple of the more basic/instinctive ones.

So, the question came down to which ones that Saga Edition provided under Use the Force do I include?

Move Light Object aka basic telekinesis was right out, as that's already covered under the Move basic power. Force Trance sounds like something better suited as either a specialization talent or perhaps part of a Control-themed Power that deals with physical enhancement. Sense Surroundings is already covered with the Uncanny Senses talent, and Telepathy is largely covered by the Sense power and the 'sense thoughts' tree, even if the upgrades presented only cover "receptive empathy/telepathy" rather than "projective telepathy" (upgrade option in a future supplement?) at the moment.

So, that left "Search Your Feelings" and "Sense Force." both of which can provided limited information, though again the "Sense Force" really isn't something that most Force-using PCs in the default setting are really going to be good at, at least not right away since said PCs are generally self-taught aka "untrained" Force-users; they might be aware of a major disturbance in the Force, but probably not be able to determine where it occurred or what the source of that disturbance was. Obi-Wan easily picked up on the destruction of Alderaan, but Luke was pretty clueless. Maybe it'd be something that becomes available either via a talent, an upgrade off the Sense power, or just from having a Force Rating of a certain value (maybe 3? perhaps 4?)

So that pretty much leaves "Search Your Feelings," which sounds like a prime case for a Vigilance check, allowing the Force-user to get a sense of whether a particular course of action is going to blow up in their faces or not… at least in regards to the next several minutes or so.

As for mechanics, I'm thinking it'd be a Hard (3 Purple) Vigilance check, and normally wouldn't be possible for someone that's not Force-sensitive to accomplish. Success means the GM lets the player know if it's a good idea or bad idea to conduct a certain course of action, possibly with extra successes making the Force-user that much more certain or perhaps see beyond the next several minutes in terms of their action's consequences, and any Advantages spent to reflect a bit of limited prescience on the Force-user's part (boost dice when taking action according to what the Force whispered to them) while Threat reflect not quite getting the full picture or the Force-user's presumptions clouding what the Force was trying to tell (setback dice). Also thinking of putting in a "once per scene" limitation to keep players from spamming this ability, as I've seen and heard quite a few Jedi players do in Saga Edition.

The other thing I'm still tinkering with is a means of allowing a Force-user to "quiet their mind" and "feel the Force flowing through them," mostly as a means of allowing PCs to occasionally generate an extra Force Point or two to activate Force Powers, thus enabling them to make more use of the Upgrades they've paid valuable XP to acquire. Still a Discipline check, to reflect getting into the proper state of mind, difficulty is Hard (this shouldn't be easy to do, especially for a neo-phyte), and the basic mechanics are worked out, so that they provide a definite perk, but not too powerful a perk unless the Force-user happens to roll really well. The only thing I'm still trying to resolve is the activation cost.

Do I make it an action by itself, or a maneuver? Should it simply cost Strain, or have them flip a destiny point? If I do go with a Strain cost, how much Strain should it cost? Should a Force-user be able to use this ability as a at-will, or limit it to once per scene?

Currently I've got it as "once per scene" and requiring a destiny point, though I'm also considering dropping the Destiny Point and have it cost 4 Strain, with the thought that any Advantages generated can be used to recoup the Strain cost.

Thoughts? Is any of the above a good idea, or am I trying to hard to "d20ify" the system?

I like these ideas, mostly the "Feel the Force" to boost Force Points. Feels like a 5th tier talent thou.

I'd like to see some Chatacteristic boosts (Brawn, Agility, Intellect, )and skill boosts (Athletics, Brawl, Melee etc.) with the force also. Mostly to mimic some of the clone wars abilities like a talent to grant multiple maneuver actions per turn, or simply spend a FP to Jump/clear 1 range increment.

Fun to theorize about but we may have to wait for a few more years, for the Force and Destiny book, before we find out.

Gamerunner said:

Well, the direct Characterist/Skill Boosts I really don't think are needed, as Force-users are already going to be better than muggles.

Superhuman speed and leaps can probably just be handled by Move, using Range Upgrades to move through multiple increments in one turn, as we don't really see a whole lot of "charge in at blinding speed and attack" in the movies or the EU (barring a few video games).

As fo the whole "Feel the Force" thing, I really don't want that to be a talent, as it should be something any Force-user can do, properly trained or not. After all, we see Luke do something similar in ESB, and he's the poster boy for "untrained Force-user" at that point in the trilogy. Also, if it does become a talent, there's the issue of what gets discarded to make room for it, and where?

I have Saga rules stuck in my head where you can't "Move" yourself to slow a fall, power jump, or lift yourself ontop of starships. So yes Edge's move power should cover things like that.

I still think there will/should be more and varied Spec/talent/power trees in Force and Destiny.

A generic "feel the force" ability makes force use almost too easy. If everyone has access to more FPs there is a lot less chance of failure (for the self taught) to use any power at its FULL capabilities every time it is used.

Something should be added to represent that. A "new skill" use (2/3 successes = +1FP) may help with that, but other capabilities may need to be tied to it.

Gamerunner said:

Well, I set the Discipline check at a Hard Difficulty, and a basic success only grants a single Force Point, which by itself will only activate the basic ability of any of the Force powers and no upgrades. So while things like basic telekinesis or sensing the emotions of somebody right next to you might be easier to do, the amount of testing I've done so far (using varying degrees of ranks in Discipline and Force Rating) tends to average out to a Force Rating 1 character being able to activate two upgrades without having to spend any Strain (2 Light Side pips from Force Die, 1 extra from "feel the Force"). You're right, it does drastically reduce the chance of failure, which was the intent.

Though it probably would have helped to post the full mechanics of what I had in mind, especially as extra successes don't play into it:

"New Maneuver: Feel the Force"

Once per scene, a Force-user can attempt to improve their chances of successfully activating a Force Power, trying to focus their thoughts and become more in tune with the Living Force. The character immediately spends a Destiny Point and makes a Discipline (Hard) check, which if successful allowsthe character to generate one free LS when activating a Force Power before the end of their current turn, provided they are able to generate at least one LS on their Force dice. Each Triumph rolled can be used to generate an extra LS, with a limit of the character’s Force Rating.

Characters that use the rules found on page 179 in the Dark Side Force Users sidebar to activate their Force powers instead roll against a Daunting difficulty, generating additional DS instead of LS.

So based on that, extra successes on the Discipline check really don't do anything, as it's the extra Triumphs that matter, and even those are restricted; as you noted, a rank amateur simply isn't going to be able to generate enough "oomph" no matter how hard they try. Currently though, it's pretty expensive (costs a destiny point), though as stated earlier I'm considering a Strain cost instead while keeping the "once per scene" thing.

That seems to work well.

I keep forgeting that Discipline is tied to some Force use.

Nobody has playtested a "sensitive" with my group. I may have to throw one, either with them or aginst them to see how some of it actually works out.

Gamerunner said:

Yeah, Force-Sensitive characters seem to be a rarity, likely due to the high investment cost involved.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Looks like super -original idea. And using vigilance for Force sense abilities…

Is there a reason you're not posting these mechanics here ?

-WJL

Okay, I'll apologize for the snark above. Objectively, this is simply plagiarism.

On 10.Sept, I posted the following on the (now locked original) Force Feedback Thread in the mechanics sub-forum here :

LethalDose said:

Compare this to the proposed maneuver posted above, and also the considerations this thread's OP presents:

Donovan Morningfire said:

Most of these concerns and discussions I provided in the original discussion of the proposed maneuver. I think it is very difficult to argue that what has proposed in here and presented as original work is anything other than my original proposal with very minor changes.

It can further be proven that this poster was clearly aware of the 10.Sept post, as he quoted it at least once and was involved in an ongoing discussion about it (also visible here ).

Nowhere in the OP is the 10.Sept message referred to, mentioned, or cited. Instead the poster chose to create a new thread, and separate subforum (where this discussion about game mechanics does not belong) to avoid giving credit for the source of the idea.

This is unethical at best, and further evidence of that this poster is untrustworthy and willing to intentionally mislead members of this forum.

-WJL

PS To be clear, I have NO problem with reposting or sharing any work produced by anyone on this forum so long as it is reasonably clear where the work came from . That is part of the reason why we have the quoting mechanism.

One thing I think I would like to see is a really low level offensive ability that requires no "force power" to be used.

in terms of the source material in universe, the primary thought for this is in the Bane novels, when Bane (IIRC) kills his father with a blast of force before he has had any training of any kind.

This sort of power creeps up in star wars stories many other times as well.

Activating the power requires a darkside result on a force die (and this requires a point of strain to use as normal). A light side result can be used, but this requires incurring 2 strain. Then, a dicipline roll is required, with a difficulty of 3, a maximum range of short, a crit of 4, and a base damage of 4.

Something like that.

Though if anyone has holes to poke in this I'm open to suggestion.

LethalDose said:

Sure, You have issues with DM we all know that now, its ok, but can't you keep it out of the forums?

Yes, quoting and citing is ethical and expected behaviour in publishing and the like, perhaps it should've been done here … it wasnt. So what? You're overreacting and throwing an unreasonable amount of harassing and exaggerated adjectives and crap at DM - which is uncalled for… also reading your long, very simplistic and obvious attacks and attempts to discredit DM is boring, disappointing and low (every time you do it). You speak highly of ethical behaviour, hiding behind obfuscating language which does nothing to strengthen your case (the opposite rather), you behave ethically questionably yourself by behaving this way. Which delegitimises your point and argument. Perhaps not in this one case - I do agree that citing and giving credit where credit is due, is important - but in your general behaviour on these forums. It creates a bad mood, poor collaborative environment and it is annoying, because it moves the focus away from cases and issues towards a person, that you for some reason don't like - which is irrelevant for this beta-test, this community and the work we are performing for FFG. If its personal take it outside. Don't use every opportunity to take a jab and come with some snide remark - its counter-productive and destructive.

I for one respect and enjoy the work and suggestions both of you come with. I hate to see two resourceful and creative minds clash because of what I understand is lack of communicative clarity of the written medium, emotions and pride. The latter being the downfall of the best of us.

Now, I like your post about this clear mind thing, its definitely similar - but also quite different from DMs. There's a difference to increasing force rating and producing an extra LS/DS. I'm not saying this isn't inspired by yours, but come on, be fair, even if it is - he might, as I've done multiple times - not even considered the similarity at all, its the way of the creative mind and inspiration (and why so much of patenting and copyright law suck big time). This is not an attack on a person or being unethical, its being creative, putting it forth here for all to see. Has he presented it as an Original Piece of Work? Perhaps it was created for discussion, on an open forum where everything is accessible to everyone… I guess its the principle of the matter that gets at you, but being a pedant myself I know it rarely produces kindness and good things to hide behind principles.

Anyway, I have a question about the clear mind manoeuvre: The expenditure of 3 advantages/1triumph to temporarily increase force rating - how much longer than a normal success? Or is it an increase beyond 1 higher? I mean, normal success = FR+1 till end of next turn, or force power activation (whichever is shorter?)? 3 adv/tri = FR +1 for 2 rounds (or activation, whichever is shorter?) or FR+2 for same duration as normal success?

Further I see your reasoning behind coerce, but I'm uncertain if I'd go that way - the increased difficulty for dark siders agree with, either way.

As for "Feel the Force"; I think the destiny point cost is steep - but it makes sense. It's in some way possibly more powerful than "Clear Mind" - since discipline/willpower most likely will have more dice at some point than a FR of 2 ever will. This also means more proficiency dice, which means more triumphs - it depends on min-maxing certainly. With an average stat no more than 2 triumphs can be produced, therefore no more than 2 SL on top of the one from successful skill check - which is less power than multiple force dice even if those dice risk producing unusable force points in relation to these manoevres. I guess both would be limited by not being able to take strain for using DS as LS - since at least clear mind requires a harder roll and different skill check.

PS: LD, you could see this as a response to your original post instead of as subverting your person. It would be easier for everyone.

Jegergryte said:

But that would deprive him of a chance to display his righteous indignation at being so deliberately snubbed

Frankly, I'd forgotten where a portion of the mechanics involved had come from, given it was a locked thread and buried amidst a lot of whining about lack of Jedi in EotE. Not that I expect him to believe that.

Any rate, it's a moot point as I'd deep-sixed the entire thing several days ago after conversing with some of my game-mechanic-minded friends from a few of the face-to-face gaming groups I'm in. Ultimately, it really trying to "d20ify" the system too much. I'd still like a way that's available to any Force-user to give them a slight leg up, but Discipline rolls to do so have been placed squarely in the rubbish bin. Someplace that frankly, given the shift in focus away from Force-users (because let's face it, a lot of focus of d20, especially Saga Edition, where Force-users), I should have done from the start.

But so as not to further aggravate LethalDose, I'll keep any thoughts on the matter to myself, at least where these forums are concerned.

If other folks what to discuss what they feel should be "fundamental" Force abilities, such as Thebearisdriving's idea of an auto-damage ability, by all means feel free. For me at least, this thread has served it's rather limited purpose, and can fade into obscurity for all I care.

To be clear, i didn't mean for it to be an auto-damage ability. i was looking for something akin to a pistol in power, with an increased difficulty to compensate for it's ability to always be available.