Apologies if this has been brought up elsewhere, but how does The Flesh is Weak (or the Machine trait, as I believe they are effectively the same) work with Armour.

Do they stack or are they considered separate? I could have sworn that they did, but I can't find any reference to it.

Can't provide a page number, but I'm quite certain they stack.

KommissarK said:

I thought this was the case too, but looking through the Dark Heresy books all I can find is that Flesh is Weak adds levels of Machine trait. Machine trait gives you an armour value equal to the machine trait and in the armour section it says that armour values don't stack, so you'd only use you machine trait armour value if it was greater than the protection given to you by your armour. Until I can find anything to contradict this, it does look like by the strict letter of the rules that they don't stack.

No, you are wrong. The Flesh is Weak grants Armour Points, not an armour in itself and therefor stacks with worn armour. Compare with the Lathe Worlds, Ascension and Black Crusade/Only War.

LC1984 said:

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, I did think that this was the case, but can you actually point to the rules that says this?

On a slightly related topic I sent a rules question to FFG a while ago on similar subject:

Message from:
Darth Smeg

Rule Question:
Are there rules/limits to the stacking of Armour effects from implants/cybernetics, Talents/Traits and Armour?

For example, can Tech-priests combine Cybernetic Heart (+1AP Body), Subskin Armour (+2AP Body), The Flesh is Weak (up to 4 AP) and a Dragonscale Armour for a total of 15APs?

Do implanted armour (subskin/cranial) benefit from Craftsmanship in the same way as regular armour? Ie, will Best Quality Subskin Armour gain another AP?

His reply:

Tim Huckelbery [email protected]
15 Sep

I'd have to say unless it states they can stack, that they cannot. Otherwise you do indeed wind up with characters with so high an AP that nothing can hurt them.
If the item is classed as Armour, then yes the Craftsmanship rules would apply. Most though are Bionics though, so unless they specifically state they would gain that (or state they count as Armour), they would not. If it's not clear, I'd go with it applying though; a finely made and perfectly bonded subskin should indeed work better than ragged carapace plates stitched under the skin.

Hope these help and thanks for playing!

Tim Huckelbery
RPG Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]
Visit us at http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/

As for the Flesh is Weak and Machine Trait, I recall a ruling that it stacks with other armour, but now that you ask for sources I can't find'em

Edit: The Only War rules has an extra line in it's description of the Machine Trait: "This armour stacks with worn armour, but not with the Natural Armour Trait."

This line is probably in BC as well, and is a good enough ruling for me, but I guess it's not official DH rules.

Darth Smeg said:

Thanks for the update, that's really useful, especially the stuff from FFG as that was going to be my follow up question. Shame there isn't anything official in the Dark Hersey rules, but as you say, hopefully Black Crusade has something I can pinch (haven't got Only War yet sadly).

I recently had to smack my tech-priest player with the nerfbat (and he's still complaining), as the combination of all these sources of protection can become a bit silly if you allow them all.

His cybernetic arms grant +2 TB, and if combined with Subskin Armour (+2AP) and 4 levels of The Flesh is Weak then your talking about 8 pts damage mitigation before you even put on any armour. Thats the equivalent of a full Power Armour, and it will all stack with his Dragonscale Armour, yes?

No!

My unoffical rulings were that

a) bionic limbs cannot be combined with subskin armour. The robustness of the cybernetic is already taken care of with the +2TB. Extra armour plating on these limbs is not possible. If you need additional protection, wear armour.

b) Subskin armour and APs from Machine trait do not stack with each other. Subskin can be bought by anyone, while TFiW is the tech-priests way of getting the same (and potentially better) effect through Talents rather than implants.

im pretty sure the machine trait specifically says that it stacks with armor. now i have to check when i get home.

For a start, you would have to find the rule that disallows Armour Points to be added to armour worn. You cannot stack armour onto armour, but you can surely reinforce an armour with armour points from different sources, that are not armour. For further applicance, see the Lathe Worlds, as an example, the Myrmidons. IIRC they have AP 16 (12+4).

As for how unbalanced this gets, thats a totally different question, but a legitimate one. Only working with DH and without Ascension I think it is possible for a Techpriest to reach a sum of T+AP from around 22, if I didn't miscalculate. 4 Levels of The Flesh is weak, 8 points of armour a natural T from 60 plus 20 from cybernetics and then subskin-armor or something in that direction, with Ascension you could add Armour-Monger, three more levels of TFiW and…, okay it is alot.

But to tell the truth, such a Techpriest will mostly need it, as Dodge is not the forte of a Techpriest and will likely take every hit, that goes in their direction. And if your Techpriest is already that heavily armoured, some enemies will surely bring weapons with them to handle him (or could if some of the more heavier weapons were not such jokes).

Some things that could be done, don't combine TFiW with cybernatical armour or the T bonus from cybernetics, that is really not needed. And reduce the maximum level of TFiW to 4 not 7, that comes with Ascension (Exemplar of Metal). Then change Armour Monger, make it a talent like in Deathwatch, which only brings a bonus of 1. Now the AP only reaches 13 all combined and T still 80, but not more.