How about a Genetic loophole?

I remember reading in some thread somewhere (someone had some sciency explanation) about genetics being a reason for only male space marines and female chromozoms being incompatible with all the genetic augmentations. That and the difference in physical strength due to much lower levels of testosterone.

Anyway, here's my loop hole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

Essentially, the person is female, but not. The syndrome above bassically says the ovaries turn into testicals and produce testosterone. But no other major changes happen (cept no menstral cycle, and the increased testosterone would allow her to be much more equal physically AND have male chromozomes ). Rare cases there are physical problems, but this is make belive so we'll assume best case scenario (they actually had this happen on House M.D. where a super model had this problem + testicular cancer).

But anyway, you could argue this point in making it possible, as the female would be compatible in every way genetically and strength wise. That way all of the canon nazi's can still sleep at night. : D

Although personally, I'd just let them play a female if it was an issue. Wouldn't hurt anything, but it might make for funnier RP situations (or at least give more veriety of options).

Seriously you can break cannon however you want. No one is stoping you. No one will come and visit you will you are sleeping. No one can do anything about it. But so can everyone else. And they dont have to be politically correct when they do it.

Now that is a funny thought. Politically correct 40k, lol.

Cryhavok said:

Our brain is specifically designed to override our biological urges, and the success we have had with this ability is apparant.

So while there is indeed biological difference between men and women, the key part of being human is what we learn from the culture we live in.

A good example of this is that 50 years ago white males dominates universities in the UK, now it is the reverse (source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9484597/White-males-now-classed-as-a-minority-group-at-university.html# ). Women have not got any biological change in those 50 years that have suddenly made them much more intelligent. Its a cultural change and it is much stronger than our biology.

At least that is my opinion. :-)

And yet our brains are part of our biology, and the diferences in gender effect brains differently. Wheather well educated or not, women share common mental traits that men don't and visa versa. Very simply men and women think differently, and this makes them better suited, with individual exceptions, to certain tasks. For example one study showed that the way women think makes them better suited to being a sniper than a mann, and men would be better suitded to being a spotter than a woman.

Aside from mental/educational reasons, there are also biological reasons, other than the rather dumb claim to greater strength or endurance (imo women in general have much more endurance than meen anyway). An example of what I mean is how long one gender can remain healthy in a low hygene environment, like extended field operations. Now I havent done extensive research into it, but I do know US army regulation says women cant go longer than three days without a bath/shower to prevent such things as infections starting in the female parts.

Also props to you for the friendly arguement, Im enjoying it. I had expected more along the lines of being drawn and quartered, cremated, and had my ashes spread over moving water.

Interestingly enough the US army has been pushing to lift the ban on women in combat, so now women can be front line soldiers too. If the army makes this push it must mean that the biology reasons are not strong enough, i.e. another culture wins over biology.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?emc=na&_r=0

I know there are biological differences, no one can argue with that, and we all have to some extend wrestle with our inner reptile, I just think that the modern brain is winning that struggle. :-)

i have served alongside women on the front lines…your 'opinion' is incorrect, cryhavok, grossly incorrect….sorry…….i'd be happy to introduce you to one of 'em, but they'd eat you and your family for lunch……

You however, bear a good resemblance to the torch wielding mob that is so blinded by the misoginistic rhetoric they imagine, whithout reading what I wrote correctly, that I said, that I have mentioned expecting. Now please be quite while I finish the enjoyable devils advocate discussion I was having with a rational person.

First i read it this morning but female are now accepted in the front line unit.

Second, about what you say on the vocabulary in battle situation and how men would have to take care to choose their words. In fact what iu'm going to say is also good for the everyday life.

Not all women are soft voice, gentle maiden (and i know it is not what you mean but i get to the point) and those who choose an army life instead of a civil one won't be IMO the most traumatized by the use of harsh words and bad langage. My tough are more the contrary.

I know some women (and i'm 33) who talk like no one else i know, and really when i hear them talk it isme who is shocked.

So watch your langage in the field won't be a problem.

Sexual harassment could indeed become problematic but once more women choosing army life aren't there to get flowers and soft whisper words with silk uniform. And maybe the harassment won't be from male to female. Women can also be quite rude and some of the most shoking photos of the last ten years came from woman in the guantanamo prison. So who know?

Most social studies in companies shows that a work force that is diverse works more effectively and delivers better results. And it kinda fits with evolution of species with a high degree of diversity has a better chance of survival. So I am sure that the army will benefit from this in the long run.

Currently there is a lot of culture issues with mixing men and women, and I think that Tony Porter put his finger quite right on this one:

His talk demonstrates that these are issues that we can deal with and fix, the problems are not hard wired biological problems that can only be fixed with genetic engineering. In other words another testimony on how culture beats biology. :-)

I guess we are getting a bit off topic. My opinion on space marines that its part of the game that they can only be male. People can run with whatever house rules they want, so long as the lore stays as it is in this subject!

Let's short-circuit this whole thread, shall we…?

Everyone who wants to play a Female Space Marine, fluff be damned, is operating under the assumption that the resulting character will be a Hot Babe in power armour- pouty lips, big boobs, cascading locks, etc. Point out to these players that the physiological changes that accompany the creation of a Space Marine will render 'her' a grotesque, barely-recognizable-as-female freak, and the desire to play one will evaporate toot-sweet…

-Now add a few decades' worth of built up battle scars, completely eliminate the breasts (why would a Space Marine have them?) and and you would have something close to a Female Space Marine. Still interested? I thought not…

Alox said:

You know it just occured to me that we havent been in a war with "lines" in a while. I wonder if the nature of our current "war" is a big factor in this change to frontline units. Mind over matter issues aside, that hygeine issue I mentioned earlier was still bothering me. However war is a bit different now then it was when those rules were made. Lots of stuff in my head right now, but im typing on a crappy little phone, suffice it to say Ill discount that as a problem now.

Cryhavok said:

I think so. With insurgents, there isn't a 'line', so even if women had previously been driving convoy trucks, they have still been in battle just as much as the 'frontline' troops in recent years. They already ARE frontline troops, and they have shown an equal capacity.

ok cryhavoc, here comes the toothy end….

you seem to be of the falacious marine mentality that suzy rottencrotch can't keep herself clean, because (apparently) she's a woman…..i've read yer posts quite thoroughly and, beyond your devil's advocacy (which is perfectly cromulent and good), this is the theme that keeps recurring. (Though, to be sure, if the meaning of yer last post - which is unclear - was to retract this belief, then i cheerfully withdraw my current invective.) This, and the theme that they shouldn't 'really' be on the line, but some dumb politico thought he'd score points by making a nice new law…..you lament that segregation is 'taboo' because, heck, that'd just solve all our problems…..

I'd love to remain "quite" (i assume yer autospeller meant 'quiet' - you should turn that sucker off) so you can continue spewing yer oh-so-carefully-worded female-hate (women *are* scary, aren't they?); but, sadly, my battlesisters have quite literally saved my life, so I know for absolute fact that they are capable and deserving of being there. They are not wilting violets, embarrassed and perturbed by naughty language during a fire fight (really?! come on!); and they are just as politically incorrect as a sailor on shore leave…

Sorry that women stepping up to be counted offends you.

Here is an actual pay of how one group incorporated Female Space Marines .

Okay, I didn't go through the three pages of posts. I read a few and there are some great ideas here already but you could reach to other books other than Deathwatch. I think if you took a woman, there is no reason that a female could not be used…. especially as say… a Grey Knight.

There would be no difference between the female Space Marine if one was made. (I wouldn't do that because it would bring a female into a very monastic military order that is more like a church than a military force, these are monk soldiers).

1. Adepta Sororitas (Blood of Martyrs Book for Dark Heresy) "Brides of the Emperor" consist of several types but the best two would be the Battle Sister or a Seraphim.

2. A Powerful Imperial Psycher.

3. An Assassin.

4. Bring back the Sisters of Silence from the Horus Heresy era. The sisters are witch hunters that wore power armor. Immune to psyker powers. They have nega-psyker abilities that would basically allow them to sense, smell and hunt psychers and perhaps chaos and xenos. (check out the Witchfinder in Blood of Martyrs)

5. Rogue Trader with a sense of adventure that agrees to transport and supply a Deathwatch kill-team in return for a big paycheck and she gets to go with them.

6. (Ascension) Inquisitor

7. (Ascension) Crusader with the Hunter of Aliens Ascended Trait…. this would be a great choice.

8. (Ascension) Death Cult Assassin

9. (Ascension) Primaris Psyker

Now there are a lot of choices out there. I would pick up Dark Heresy, Ascension and Blood of Martyrs to go with Deathwatch. I am only missing Only War and I intend on getting that soon. I would not just make a female space marine unless you created a new chapter, she would be treated with suspicion too. Remember, Space Marines are extremely suspicious and hostile when they believe that something is not right with the situation. I would have it be a problem in the game - maybe not for the PC's but I would create animosity that the character will have to deal with because she is different and different is not good to a Space Marine.

Feel free to use my homebrew chapter. It is the top post in Fan-Fiction right now, `Daughters of Death.` Keep in mind, I created them for a friend of mine who really wanted to play an Astartes Apothecary, that was female.

Creating that chapter has been a ton of fun. Enjoy!

From a related thread: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/75287-female-player-and-what-to-do/page-3#entry836752

This thread is really more about marine sex than marine gender. You could theoretically have a transgendered marine, I just doubt such an Aspirant would be accepted for full implantation as it would probably be really difficult for their mind.

Wasn't this address in the fluff that the augmentation via implants renders aspirants neuter which also mitigates suseptability to the influences of Slaanesh among other distractions.....?

I remember reading repeatedly that lust does not enter in an Astartes cognition. They are essentially chemically neutered, like you said.

I just can`t remember where the hell I read that.