I half-expect that I'm going to be seen as some twisted heretic for this, but I figured I would throw it out there and get an idea of who thinks what. I'll preface this by saying that I have a decent idea of the 40K universe and all (I'm coupling the various game books with the army codices and the like), so I'm not just trying to ignorantly blunder off into uncharted territory.

My roommates are potentially interested in seeing what the 40K universe is about. One of them is female, and I'm not very keen on trying to mix Sisters of Battle (via Ascension) with Space Marines, because I still have the feeling that the Astartes are gonna run the show, and I want to be certain that I'm not forcing her to play a male character and therefore be outside her comfort zone. So, I came up with the following, courtesy in no small part of the Rites of Battle:

738.M41 -- As part of the recent Twenty-Sixth Founding, the High Lords of Terra found themselves with a conundrum: the Emperor's Tarot threw them a curve and required the formation of a unique Space Marine Chapter, composed solely of females -- what sort of destiny this Chapter might have under the Emperor's protection is anyone's guess. This sends the High Lords into a flurry of activity, until finally an agreement is worked out with both the Inquisition and the Adepta Sororitas to monitor the formation of the new chapter, named the Golden Spears. As part of their monitoring and agreement, the Adeptes Astartes at large are not told of the all-female nature of the Night Spears, at least not initially.

The Progenitor gene-seed, perhaps surprisingly, does not come from the Ultramarines, but instead from the White Scars. Their assigned homeworld is a feral world uniquely suited to the needs of the Night Spears -- the human population is extremely female-dominant, and yet manages to thrive in spite of the gender inequality. As the Chapter formation proceeds, the Night Spears see very limited action, but fortune is with them: the inaugural Chapter Master (the titles remain the same, in keeping with the Codex) manages to win a rather stunning victory over the forces of Chaos, specifically the Alpha Legion; this is made all the more amazing in that a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch was involved and also defeated.

As of 817.M41 (Deathwatch setting, IIRC), the Golden Spears are not quite at nominal strength, but growing close. The Chapter takes many cues from the White Scars in regards to combat doctrine and general demeanour, but charts its own course -- members are trained extensively with the Astartes Power Spear for use in combat, and it has become a traditional sight for the Golden Spears to field spear-wielders. On occasion, the Golden Spears have assisted the Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition, and more rarely team with Grey Knights; like the Silver Skulls and the Exorcists, the Golden Spears are aware of the existence of the Grey Knights, due to their ties with the Inquisition, but are still subject to post-mission mind-wipes when the situation requires it.

I based this predominantly off the Amazons of myth, though I did add the feral world the Golden Spears chapter is based upon from Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorean cycles, specifically Maragor, where the females outnumbered the males 9:1. I'm sure I'm gonna get "HERETIC!" for giving women an equal opportunity in war (it being historically "a man's pursuit" when it comes to the 40K universe), but I thought it would be interesting to see how something like this would potentially work. I'm curious to see what people think, though -- I'm not trying to start a debate about sexuality or anything like that, but I would like to know thoughts.

Hi,

Indeed you will be shouted.

As far as I know women have never been let apart in the 40K universe.

They have a lot of specific unit and are part of the guard.

If you really want to have female SM why not after all it is your game and your idea sound good.

But really if you want a female player in your game why not propose her to play sister of battle first (look at blood of martyr in DH, and you will see that your character won't be weack compared to aSM), or, even sister of silence… after all deathwatch is also part of inquisition.

As you can see I'm not really inclined to let female SM but what the Hell have fun.

If you wonder why my post looks like hell the forum is ******* me over right now.

darksabrz said:

darksabrz said:

darksabrz said:

Ive literally just made this point in another thread in the DW forums so im amazed it has come up so soon but basically:
Deathwatch is a game about a-sexual superbeings dungeon crawling and slaying all that stands in their way. Yes there is a degree of macho hoo-rah about it all but ultimately gender plays no role in it.

GMs shouldn't automatically assume that female players want to play female characters. Thats just demeaning and honestly doing no favours for the gaming community at large. Explain that gender means nothing in this game and if it helps the female players can imagine themselves as female super soldiers, but ultimately it has no mechanical effect. Furthermore if the reason said female gamers may not want to play spezzmherrins is because they arent into combat heavy action RPG then its more likely a case that this isn't the system for them. Try out Rogue Trader instead and allow 1 or 2 Kill Marines as player options - this gives the same end effect without ruining the system as intended.

Kasatka said:

I've already read most of what amounted to a 9-page back-and-forth here about whether Astartes can have sex or not and gender issues therein; I'm not interested in restarting that debate. Knowing my roommates (since they're a married couple and all IRL and I've gamed with them for most of a decade at this point), that situation is bound to come up, but that's neither here nor there. Given how this player has DM'ed 2nd edition AD&D in the past, she has no qualms about being combat-heavy -- after all, we were playing Dark Sun, and by the end of the campaign she was throwing various of the Dragon-Kings of Athas at us. Take that as you will.

In my case, it isn't an automatic assumption -- she's stated clearly in the past in other games that she would prefer to play a female character, and I've known her long enough to know that I should provide the option for her, rather than force her to play outside her comfort zone; that would be demeaning to her and doing no favors for keeping her interested in playing. The problem with trying to use Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader (especially DH / Blood of Martyrs for Sisters of Battle) to go along with Deathwatch is the difference of power levels -- I can't possibly run something where every character is Rank 1, because she's gonna get splattered due to the extreme lack of XP, and the lack of stats compared to Space Marines. That means the only alternative is to use Ascension… which means she'll have to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour (or more) longer to make a character than anyone else because she'll have to spend XP to make her progression from Rank 1 to Rank 9, just so she could be on an even keel, and even then she's gonna likely wind up left behind because the XP expenditures are pretty high at Ascended levels -- particularly for the stat increases that can help even the odds, of which Space Marines automatically have the full benefit.

Hand in hand with that is the fact that it's also not cool to limit her by saying "you can only have access to this stuff" while she's watching the other roommates (at higher ranks) breaking out the occasional Terminator armor or high-end heavy weapons or whatnot, or "you can't fight, stay here while we deal with it" and leave her completely out of combat (which would be even worse). I want everyone to be able to contribute to the story in their own way, but I want everyone to enjoy themselves as well. That's what I'm striving for. I want there to be balance -- and balance isn't going to be possible if I'm running what amounts to Ascended-level characters in Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy in using Kill-Marines as player options.

Gurkhal: I'm not trying to be a martyr by any means -- it's more the fact that I know a lot of people are extremely leery of venturing outside of canon, and that's fine -- we all have our own opinions. Like I was saying above to Kasatka, though, I'm not fond of making my female player have to spend longer setting up a character than anyone else because she has to go through 8 rank progressions worth of XP spends in preparation to be able to be on an even keel with a Rank 1 Space Marine, when it's easier (and a lot less headache for her and I both) to give her the option that female Space Marines are possible.

It is meant to be Golden Spears, just didn't see that I'd missed a couple of Night mentions… and only now saw the edit function after looking all over the place for it. I'd considered possibly modeling them on Valkyries as well, but with all the gene-seed issues of the Space Wolves (which seemed to be the most logical choice as a Progenitor Chapter for a Valkyrie-themed Chapter), I was leery of it being that way, and I didn't feel like other potential gene-seed donors would look so kindly upon the prospect of the Golden Spears being (potentially) widely divergent from the Codex as the Space Wolves might (given their own divergence from the Codex).

In the end, that's where I have the biggest concern -- the fact that a female character will have to spend much longer setting up a character than a regular Space Marine concept would take to complete. That, I fear, is what may well drive the female player away from giving the game a chance, and I don't want to leave her out of the game because my only option is "use DH, Blood of Martyrs and Ascension to make a Sisters of Battle".

darksabrz said:

I don't see what the problem is or why this even needs to be debated: you have a player that wants to play a female Space Marine. Your group is cool with it. You're cool with it so you created a great sounding option to allow that to happen and for everybody to have a good time.

Is it canon? No. But who cares? You'll all have an awesome time blowing up and cutting up the Emperor's enemies. I think it rocks.

A possible alternative? Have her roll up a character according to the deathwatch rules, change the gender, call her character a Sister of Battle. Then, see about trading in some of the basic SM abilities and replacing them with some SoB-type abilities instead. (Maybe she replaces all of the Xeno-specific skills and abilities given to Deathwatch PCs with Heretic abilities instead? So, Forbidden Lore (Heretics) or (Cults), instead of confirming criticals on Xenos, she confirms automatically on heretics, etc.)

Seems to me that would be a much easier way ensuring game balance than trying to roll up a SoB with the bloated DH character progression tables and it ensures no one feels short-changed.

We doing this again? All right.

Okay, first and foremost, as has been said time and again: It's your game. If you want to have female Space Marines, ultimately it's up to you, but you should probably talk to all of your players before you set it in stone. First, make sure the female player WANTS to play a female Space Marine. Battle Sister into Palatine is a powerful choice, don't sell it short, and I've got a female friend in my game who loves her Space Wolf Rune Priest. Second, make sure you're not going to cheese off any of your other players by mucking with fluff like that. It's no good to appease one player if three others are going to quit over it.

Personally, I'd try to avoid female Space Marines, but I'm a bit of a fluff monkey myself. If you're going to do it, may I suggest you do Twenty-First Founding instead? The whole aberrant nature of having female SM kinda lends itself to the weirdness of the 21st.

To expand on what Macharius said about using the Space Marine rules for a Sister of Battle: using the Black Templars for a base and fluffing the space marine special stuff as being artifacts or implants on the Sister works beautifully.

I offered the sole female player in my first Deathwatch campaign a few options when it was clear she did not want to play a male character. An ascension level Dark Heresy character, a high level Rogue Trader character or a uniquely gene-enhanced Inquisitorial agent. Mechanically, the latter would have been a character built using the Deathwatch rules. She picked an ascended sister of battle so I can't say much of the latter option.

Kasatka said:

Amen! Who are these women who can't play an imaginary character if it may (or may not) have an imaginary wang? I have two male players who play female characters in my Dark Heresy campaign, and no-one bats an eyelash… And another guys' girlfriend has sat in on our Deathwatch games and played a standard Space Marine when we were short-handed on our regular players. What's the problem?

That said, it's your campaign and you can do whatever you want with it- female Space Marines, Eldar who talk with gangsta accents, voidships fueled by 'space ganja', the Emperor is actually the perserved corpse of Andrew 'Dice' Clay, whatever. Knock yourself out- it's your campaign and you are entitled to do with it whatever you please. What you are not entitled to is the approval of those of us who prefer to hold more-or-less to canon- and that seems to be what the people who start all of these 'Female Space Marine' threads are fishing for…

Adeptus-B said:

WARHAMMER 420K

IN THE GRIM DARK FUTURE OF THE FORTY-FIRST MILLENIUM, THERE IS ONLY BOGARTING

yeah, it ain't canon, so not sure what yer lookin' for here: go for it and have fun; personally, i'd follow the advice of some of the other posters and do an inquisitor, acolyte, or battle sista. marines is for boys.

Yeah… I've actually looked a bit more in-depth at the Adepta Sororitas in Blood of Martyrs and then some of the Ascension stuff -- I was surprised at several of the Faith powers, as well as some of the talents they have access to (Miraculous Survival being one of them). I talked with her some about it, and I think she might go for Sisters of Battle.

Cool! they really are, in my opinion, better female characters than a plain old 'female space marine' - there's a lot to the sisters' orders, i'm sure yer player can draw a lot of inspiration from them. (sadly, the info is in multiple books… )

An adepta sororitas assigned to a kill team as part of a joint-ordo taskforce makes perfect canon sense to me. It also allows for one of (if not THE) most powerful character options from Dark Heresy to keep up with Deathwatch characters.

As i said before however, be careful about letting the Sister get too good at the social challenges of your campaign - the social roadblocks are present in the system because they are meant to be a challenge to the 'i can kill anything' marines. Allowing the special snowflake character to gloss over any hardships the group may encounter is detrimental in the long run.

Which leads into another thread I posted, about integration issues. How do I best integrate a Battle Sister into a Deathwatch game? Right now, I'm planning on starting with Dark Heresy, and once Ascension-level comes about, giving the other players a chance to switch over to Space Marines. At the same time, though, I want to be certain I keep things balanced so that there's challenge for both, while still giving each side a chance to shine.

that's a tougher nut to crack….but, it seems like that's an issue to tackle in the future…give yerself a chance to play thru things a bit; you'll probly get a feel for how to handle things once yer up to yer neck, as it were…i'm sure the battlesister will find a way to shine…if nothing else, she has her Faith…she'll hafta play a bit smarter, a bit more carefully than a typical marine, but if you've played thru to 13,000 xp you're gonna have little problem with that, me thinks….

Sorry for not reading a bit of this thread (its oh so often pulled from the other threads on the matter), but my 2 thrones:

1. Gender isn't really a heavy part of the theme of Deathwatch. Its macho, yes, but its not "its macho, because we're men," but rather, "because we're space marines." I see space marines as off on their own thing to a degree that gender is kind of a non issue for them.

2. That said, in the setting, there are only male space marines (or rather, only males are accepted as recruits)

3. Obviously, its your game, so feel free to change as you desire (nobody can really force you to play any certain way). Obviously, you should mention setting changes to your players (as the setting is the common element players can draw from)

4. What I would most strongly urge you not to do, is to make a female space marine a special snowflake. Don't say shes one of a kind, don't say she was given space marine implants from a mad scientist. Don't say there's some secret founding, and only 1 chapter that has female space marines. Instead, just say that women indeed can survive the implant process, and have all chapters have some mix of men and women serving in their ranks. Making a big deal about it is about the #1 thing that goes against the themes of Deathwatch. I would say maintain the "warrior fraternity" feel though, and have even female members be referred to as "Brother."

5. As others have said, an ascended Palatine using the BoM sororitas rules is actually quite effective. Just give her the cloak that provides unnatural toughness, and you wind up with a character that does a bit less damage, but can bring quite a few "advanced" skills to the table, and a whole lot of utility from the faith powers.

4. What I would most strongly urge you not to do, is to make a female space marine a special snowflake. Don't say shes one of a kind, don't say she was given space marine implants from a mad scientist. Don't say there's some secret founding, and only 1 chapter that has female space marines. Instead, just say that women indeed can survive the implant process, and have all chapters have some mix of men and women serving in their ranks. Making a big deal about it is about the #1 thing that goes against the themes of Deathwatch. I would say maintain the "warrior fraternity" feel though, and have even female members be referred to as "Brother."

Specific to this, look at the entire 40k model range. There is a single female Guardsman model, and you can practically see her *****. Given GW's art style, there may be female Space Marines, but we just can't tell. But seriously, there are descriptions of females elsewhere in the Imperium, even if we don't see them.

As I mentioned in your other thread on system integreation, Marines are sexless robots. I think you might be looking into this too much. I'd suggest talking with her and finding out what the real problem is. Is there something specific about gender roles that she has issues with? For example, a friend and I often play female characters (I do so based on image). Another player constantly complains because it freaks him out, thinking that we are all male and suddenly his mental image is me (or the other player) with breasts. I've also heard arguments about people not being able to play a realistic [insert gener], or playing some offensive 50's throwback. I'd find out what her issue is, if there is in fact an issue with playing a Space Marine, and seek to resolve that problem. Personally, trying to bring the systems together just causes problems, and you might be cause more trouble by trying to avoid a non-issue than by just dealing with it.

It is your game, do what ever you think might suit but always speak to your players if you change something essential like the Background. I for example like the grimdark fluff of WH40k and play the Tabletop since the second Edition. I would not accept any change like "every chapter always had females" or "a chapters geneseed has mutated and allows female transplantation". Though this is my, and only my preference. If you want to create your own background, be clear about where you make the changes and discuss this problem with your players. Ask them what they think about it. I like the more or less medieval knight-chapter atmosphere that is about brothers in arms that have ultimatly sacrificed their humanity to some degree to be the last and first line of defense against the threats that seek to destroy not the imperium but humankind.

It might sound "macho" but this is my point of view. We are not playing the badasses that wipe out complete tyranid populations and quote hollywood ar-movies. We are playing holy warriors whos believes and understanding are "different" from anything a normal human has. This is our way of playing them, there is nothing more righ or wrong about it but this is the consence of our group, and this is was I suggest you to seek for. Dont confront them with your fixed ideas someone might agree to though he is not complelty convinces. Seek for a discussion and find the right "theme" you all want to play in.

If you want to roll a female marine then do it though you have to accept that the round isnt true to the fluff anymore. It is/was quite clear that there can be no female space marine. One explanation for this is the "fact" that a human body can not accept the gene-seed and its implants. This has been explained by the fluff (black library) for the reason that the emperor was quite clear about his intentions for he did not want to have a super-human sup-race. He wanted soldiers, the elite of the elite, there is no reason for gender-equality, there is only a result of a-sexual battle-brothers that can create a fighting unit that surpasses everything that was before.

The thunder-warriors and custodes are humankinds greates warriors, but you do not conquer the galaxy with warriors, you need soldiers. And this is why the astartes view their boundaries to their borthers as holy. It is the macho-like stereotype of true battle-brothers, brothers that go straight into the jaws of hell itself to face what nobody else can. It is the same stuff any good WWII/military order movie/series is made about. We like it that way, but now it is on you to find out what your players like.

There ary many suggestions in these forums like a sororitas, inquisitorial agent or other "regular" role if you want to keep the fluff. If you want to break it all doors are open and only your imaginations and the group consensus are the limits. Make a female marine if you like it but when you start this changes ask yourself how many WH40k you are still playing and how much it becomes your own Sci-Fi-Universe. If you make such changes find clear limits for them, find the borders between your fluff and the official fluff and dont loose your game in to much trade-offs.

darksabrz said:

This is a well thought our rational that is totally in line with the flavor of 40k. I see no reason why this can't be done. It's a much better option than forcing a player (of any gender) to play a weaker character in order to have the character be of a gender they are comfortable with. Despite any previous objections I promise you that the universe will not implode and the inquisition will not actually visit u to enforce any gender policies.

But it is mentioned in DW core that the current crop of gene seeds are coded to male DNA. So I'd find a rational for this chapter Possesing gene seed that's coded to female DNA. Weather by accident or designe.

Aside from 40k, men in war vs women in war has more to do with the psychological differences between genders than the physical… at least in the modern age. The too major traits are first, women have trouble taking orders from other women, and second women who commit to a fight have trouble retreating, even if it makes sense. Those two traits cost too many lives to allow them in a warzone. Now lets see who burns me for heresy

Cryhavoc it is absolutely not a psychological mater, not even a physical one, but an educationnal one.

We are what we are taught we are.

Even today boys and girls are not educate the same way, where physical prowess is fien with boys it is not true for the girls.

To be gentle is good for girl but not so boyish… ect…

Women and men have potebtialy the same amount of violence and murdermaking, the same amount of obediance and revolt, the same amount of love or hate. The differences are in witch is learn to who.

Also, to say men and women work the same phisically and mentally is silly, and while it is a nice thought, it disregards science and reality.

To be clear though, I do not disagree that the way the genders are educated throught life has an impact on things, but I do disagree that it is the only, or even the biggest factor.

On another note, if I was ever going to have a female marine I would use the angle of the ravengaurd. Thier primarch messed with the geneseed, with some disasterous results, but my fluff edit would say that one of the few good things that came out of it was a female geneseed, allowing the ravengaurd to recruit from a larger population pool. After that edit, if the player in question wanted to play a different chapter, it would be a simple matter to have that primarch have shared this information with the emperor/his brothers/mechanicus genetors as appropriate and the information was diseminated to the other chapters.

So the best way to include a female space marine is to rub it in the players face that their character is a mistake ?

Personally, I don't foresee any problem with making a regular space marine character and writing on it an "F" for "female". Call it an alternate universe where the Space Marine chapters are made up of men and women whose sole interest is earning glory by killing the enemies of man-kind.

-K