Hello all!

Title says it all- I've heard a lot of people have been using the Only War/Black Crusade combat rules.

The only real changes I can see in there are-

1) Standard Attacks gain +10 to hit.

2) Full Auto/Semi auto changes.

3) Same changes with Swift attack and lightning attack.

4) You can do other stuff at the end of a charge.

Is there anything that I am missing that really takes those rules to the next level? Enough to warrant a "I should use these" Instead? Were already using the Full Auto/Semi Auto Changes… but for the rest of it….

You'll not save yourself a lot of time by switching, but we do find that it's easier to remember the rules when they work in a consistent manner. Like the auto-fire and multiple melee attack.

There are a few elements where the rules are simpler, meaning less maths and dice rolls. The Scatter rules, for example. The Psyker rules are much simpler, and won't suffer from atrocious scaling.

There are changes that don't do much mechanically, but makes the rules simpler. An example is untrained basic skills. Instead of halving a characteristics before applying modifiers, you now have a -20 modifier to the test. "Do we halve first, then mod? Or do I halve the final score?" No issue any more!

Apart from that it is more along the line of changes that balance better. The rules for primitive weapons and armour are nice. The small things, like how Might Shot scale with BS instead of a flat modifier.

So yeah, more of a revision rather than a revolution. Except the Psyker-rules which are completely different

Ahhh, so were talking rules in general!

That makes a lot of sense, and I feel very stupid in retrospect- because we'd already done that.

A -20 when you're untrained, primitive weapons and armor, might shot and the rest of them- I've already applied most of those, but often one at a time instead of all in bulk, so they were lost in translation.

I will be sure to explain that to the players once we start the game on Friday- that we've been actually playing with the rules revised without really realizing it

Darth Smeg said:

This was long overdue and is one of my favourite changes.

Are all the updates in the 'Only War' Beta? I'd like to 'try' before I buy.

Yes, but you should also grab the updates doc which was updated every week during the Beta. The final product should have all these changes, as well as some others I would think, included.

However, there are a few places where OW reversed some changes from BC. The Scatter rules among them. I don't know if this was deliberate or an oversight, it was never addressed in the beta when I pointed it out.

I personally like the BC version better, so I've stuck with it Also, Called Shots don't make a lot of sense in either of these rulesets

Hummm. so, I need to look for a way to get my hands on those rules.

…A friend has the Only War Beta, but he won't have the update files. I could look for the Only War rulebook I suppose.

Hum.

Thanks for this insight, I'll really need to look into it now. I HATE the +20 full auto rules.

The updates are downloadable from FFG. The main rules were $20 at rpgthroug and whatnot. But they may no longer be for sale?

I'm having trouble finding them, Darth.

DrivethruRPG hasn't got them, there's only a sample mission in the 'support' section of 'only war', and i'm wondering where to try next (short of Amazon and my wages.)

Meh. I'll take a good look tonight at my options. I can borrow BC or I can buy OW or I can search the ether, off the top of my head.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Another great one is how your Degrees on Success on an attack roll can replace one of your damage die results. So if you make a great shot, and then roll a 1 for damage, you can choose to use your DoS instead. Especially nice for Accurate weapons where you are likely to have many DoS and several dice

Which page is that particular rule, or is it linked to the new mighty shot talent? I don't recall noticing it.

Saldre said:

P 182, under "Step Four: Attacker determines Damage"

For all attack rolls, count the Degrees of Success. The attacker
may choose to replace the result on a single Damage die with the
number of Degrees of Success from his attack roll. If the attack
inflicts more than one die of Damage, the attacker may replace
the result on one die of his choice with the Degrees of Success
from the attack roll. If a natural 10 is rolled on any Damage die,
there is a chance of Righteous Fury.

…. That's also a perfect rule… that we'll have to include…

It does reduce the anti-climax of rolling a 01 to hit, and then rolling a 01 to damage as well.

I've had a good check of the rules… a lot of it is better or different, anyway. I'm impressed.

Convincing my players will be an exercise in self torture, however.

So… no one's compiled a list of differences? Humm. With so much reading and cross-checking to do, I see why. If they were paid to, I'm sure they would, but earning money out of someone else's product like that would be illegal.

The Psyker crossover… that looks mildly difficult, as the powers and skills from the new ruleset would be required. Everything else looks fairly trivial (I swear though, with Point blank getting shorter, I'm going to make scatter up to five metres…)

The Righteous Fury rules… I like them! Darth Smeg & Saldre are right, less anticlimatic (plus more dangerous due to fatigue levels and impairments.)

I tried to summarize the old war rules compared to dark heresy. I have not looked at it for a little while, so there may be errors in it, if you spot any please let me know!

Unnatural characteristic:

Each point is added to ability bonus instead of doubling it. Also each point gives half DoS rounded up on a successful check.

Combat actions:
(only one attack subtype and one concentration subtype per round)

Aim: half action=+10 skill, full action=+20 skill. Must be followed by attack and lost if reaction is done.
All out attack (full action): one melee attack with +30 weapon skill (cannot combine with aim), no reactions till start of players next action
Brace heavy weapon (half action)
Called shot (full action): single attack at -20 skill
Charge (full action): one melee attack with +20 weapon skill
Defensive stance (full action): +1 extra reaction untill start of players next action, enemies get -20 ws, all reactions must be either dodge or parry
Delay (half action): Can do a half action at any time before next turn, opposed agility to determine who is first if two actors wants to do delayed actions at the same time
Disengage (full action): Leave melee without penalties and do half-move
Evasion (reaction): Dodge or Parry an attack, cannot evade overwatch attacks and cannot evade when fleeing. Must be aware of the attack.
Feint (half action): opposed weapon skill check, if successful then one standard melee attack (not swift/lightning) this round can not be dodged/parried
Full auto burst (half action): -10 BS, 1 hit per DoS (can do other hand attack in this half action too!)
Grapple (half or full): full action if intended to initiate or keep grapple lock, half action to break free
Guarded action (half action): -10 skill on attacks this turn, +10 dodge/parry til next turn (can not be used if already attacked this turn)
Jump/Leap (full action)
Knock Down (half action)
Lightning attack (half action): -10 WS, 1 hit per DoS, WS-bonus determines max hits (can do other hand attack in this half action too!) NO unwieldy or unbalanced weapons.
Manoevre (half action): melee opposed weapon skill, force opponent to move 1 meter opposite direction of attacker
Move (half or full): If engaged in melee, opponents gets free single melee attack that cannot be dodged/parried
Overwatch (full action): 45 degrees cone, any mode: single/burst/fullauto (they all give pinning but at -0 pin), reactions ends overwatch
Ready (half action): draw or put away weapon, use stimm pack, coat poison on weapon, etc.
Reload (varies by weapon)
Run (full action): If engaged in melee, opponents gets free single melee attack that cannot be dodged/parried
Semi auto burst (half action): +0 BS, 1 hit per 2 DoS rounded up (can do other hand attack in this half action too!)
Stand/Mount (half action)
Standard attack (half action): +10 WS/BS (can do other hand attack in this half action too!)
Stun (full action): melee virtual damage, -20 WS 1d10+str damage and stun if higher than target toughness bonus
Suppressing fire (full action): -20 BS, random target in 45 degree cone per 2 DoS rounded up, semi-auto: -10 pin, full auto: -20 pin
Swift attack (half action): +0 WS, 1 hit per 2 DoS rounded up, WS-bonus determines max hits (can do other hand attack in this half action too!)
Tactical advantage (full action): can move from cover to cover and keep cover bonus
Use skill (varies)

Damage die replaced with DoS:
If multiple dies are rolled for damage, one of the damage dies may be replaced with the DoS from the hit roll.

Righteous fury:
If a "0" is scored on any damage dice roll, roll WS/BS with all modifiers of the origrinal attack and if hit again either do 1 wound or if attacked successfully wounded give a 1d5 crit
(it does not count as a crit and no crit bonus talents is applied - just for the effect)

Gang up:
does not seem to be any negative side effects of being ganged up, only positive modifier for those that does the ganging up

Talents

Lightning Reflexes: 2d10 and select best dice, instead of double agi bonus
Mighty Shot: +(BS-bonus/2 rounded up) instead of flat +2
Crushing Blow: +(WS-bonus/2 rounded up) instead of flat +2
Quick Draw: draw weapon (does not work on put weapon away); melee is one-handed and ranged is pistol/basic
Step aside: can be used as either dodge or parry (Wall of steel talent gone)
Takedown: can be used with charge
Precise blow + sure strike: no longer move around between dice for hit location
Deadeye shot + called shot: like above
Paranoia: +2 initiative
Hip shot: only single hit mode for the one attack made during a full move
Furious assault: if all out attack hits, one reaction may be converted to an extra attack, works on all-out charge too
Double team: +10/+20 WS when teaming up in addition to an eventual gang up bonus
Counter attack: free standard attack after parry with -20 WS (once per turn only)
Combat master: prevents foes for getting gang up bonus (must defender wield melee weapon?)
Blind fighting: only works in melee (include pistols in melee too?)
Blade master: reroll a missed attack (does not matter what hit mode)
Arms master: does not work on exotic weapons
Sure strike: not allowed to switch dice

New talents:
Sidearm: like gunslinger, just 1 melee and 1 ranged
Blade dancer: like gunslinger, just 2 melee

New talents (high level play):
Armour-monger: +1 armor points on armor if got 1 hour every day to maintain (have a few prerequisites talents)
Assassin strike: after melee attack hits can make a free half move without leaving melee penalties
Beserk charge: charge is +30 WS instead of +20 WS
Bolter drill: when doing burst/fullauto get one extra DoS for free on a hit if not moved (i.e. a half hit for semi)
Combat formation: entire group gets +1 initiative roll and may choose to use int bonus of the character having this talent instead of own agi bonus
Eye of vengeance: spend a fate point to get +X dam and +X pen per DoS on an attack
Flesh renderer: chain melee weapon gets an additional tearing dice to choose from
Hammer Blow: all out attack single hit mode has half str bonus as armor penetration
Lasgun barrage: when doing burst/fullauto get one extra DoS for free on a hit if not moved (i.e. a half hit for semi)
Preternatural speed: double charge distance
Raptor: 1d10 melee damage bonus when charging with jump pack
Storm of Iron: damage bonus vs. horde (see horde rules) or moving semi/full auto hits 5 meters instead of 2
Thunder Charge: knock targets in the way down when charging based on opposed str checks
Target Selection: shoot into melee
War cry: enemies in 50 feet do fear 1 check (and get one fatigue at end of combat)
Weapon-Tech: once per combat add int bonus as damage and penetration for a full round on melta, plasma, power and exotic
Whirlwind of death: damage bonus vs. horde (see horde rules) or make single attacks against all in melee up to weapon bonus number of targets