At least according to occasional postings on this board and my own experience, it seems that there are parts of the DH line that could be improved (e.g., "Ascention" being broken). Since the release of W40K Dark Heresy, it's been reported on the board that subsequent rules iterations have become increasingly elegant (e.g, the core mechanics of each major line are fixed/streamlined version of the previous line in addition to line specific stuff).

So, it seems to me, people (you guys and gals), could have done one of the following:

1. ignored it and just used the RAW

2. used the random eratta / house rules postings

3. converted the game over to a later system with some converison rules

4. done something else I'm not aware of

In previous pings, i've gotten references to #3, but they're mostly of the "you could use Rogue Trader, and somoeone once posted something about it but I can't find it."

I'd love to know for those who haven't done #1 what they've actually, successfully done so that I can just do that.

There's an option 5, where someone converts it over to some generic system, but I'm not sure that's relevant here.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

We've adopted changes to mechanics, talents, gear, pretty much everything from Black Crusade / Only War with the exception of the Psyker Rules.

The only reason we haven't changed those is that it's a bit of work (but most of that HAS been done already by No-one-here-Nathan, so it's really no excuse), and I'm not sure my slow-to-learn-rules Psyker-player would survive having to re-learn the whole thing That, and because I love watching him blow **** up with all the phenomena the original rules cause

We've kept the careers too, because they were all rank 8 when BC came out and I didn't fancy the work of a conversion. But you will find the DH classes as specialist/templates for both BC and OW on their respective forums, so this is also already done if you're starting a new campaign.

It sorta works. But there are the odd details that I really should address. The changes to the attack-actions means that people will generally score more successes, with more DoS meaning more hits. In OW this is balanced by Parry being a skill, which can be trained to +20 or higher. But no DH class has this option. You'd need to add this to all relevant classes, at the appropriate ranks. Perhaps having Parry scale alongside Dodge?

Plushy hacked the Dark Heresy character classes for the Only War ruleset and character creation system here:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=304&efcid=46&efidt=679956

Looks like it got some good feedback.

My group pretty much just uses Dark Heresy RAW though.

Interogator Z.

I do Option #1 and use RAW. Never looked back, never regretted it, and everoyne,s happy, GM and players alike.

People who buy the game only to use another game system are silly billies. What a waste of money to buy a book only to never use it….Might as well play cowboys&indians if you're gonne wing it.

It's not as if we never use the book, or as if we didn't use it exclusively before the other games came out.

But to ignore improvements that come out later because "the original is best, and what I payed for" is just silly (See how 2 can play that game?)

It's like sticking with Dos 5.0 because that whole windows-thingy is not what you payed for, right?

No, but if I start a DH game, I won't switch to RT psycik powers for example, because they are less deadly and more 'Psyker-friendly' (read: less-dangerous), as being a psyker should be a dangerous buisness, rather than having the ability to do powers at half force without any consequence whatsoever. Nor do I see reason to use the +10/+0/-10 attack modes rather than the original +0/+10/+20 in DH right now. Make for more lethal combat, as DH should be a thinking man's game (as in, more leaning toward investigation with some combat rather than combat with a side of investigation) so giving points for planning and preparation rather than for kicking the door, shooting boltguns.

I'd rather have my players use their brains to figure out a situation than "I attack!" right off the bat. Not saying that combat is never apart of my games, but I'd rather have the PCs plan and execute an ambush or whatever than a classic "massed rumble" scenario.

Our group has 'tweaked' some of the Talents and rules we felt address oversights in the original descriptions, but we tend to stick to the RAW for whatever game we're playing (DH, RT, DW or OW). No one's complained.

For instance, we've adopted the OW rule that Assassin Strike can only be used once/turn despite there being no such restriction in DH. Other 'little' things like that that felt to us like 'errata-style' changes as opposed to wholesale rewritings of talents and traits.

We haven't tried changing any of the Psyker rules either: the may be broken but at least they're entertaining. If any of us ever rolls up another psyker, we might revise them but for our current game they're fine.

We're still on the fence about the new Single shot/Semi-/Full-auto rules. They make sense to us but we haven't played with them enough to know if it will significantly impact the game balance of, say, DH or DW. It's likely we'll have a better idea when the final version of OW comes out and we play through a campaign.

Braddoc said:

Actually, my experience has been that +0/+10/+20 reduces thinking because in almost all cases you should be using the highest rate of fire of your weapon. It virtually guarantees that people will kick down the door and lay down as many bullets as possible because who would pass up +20% to hit unless they're using a Basic weapon with the Accurate quality?

When I first played with the +10/0/-10 rules, I was amazed by how much this changed: all of a sudden range and other factors became much more important. It made sense to make a single shot, especially with targets farther away. Not to mention, this +10/0/-10 makes great sense: full-auto can tear through people at short ranges but if someone is standing 200m away, recoil makes it difficult to keep the shots concentrated on a small (re: man-sized) target. There really is a trade-off between accuracy and 'volume'. And, it suddenly makes pinning and overwatch and suppressive fire much more tactically viable.

One of the (selfish) reasons this rules appeals to me: I play a Moritat Reaper with two mono-blades. My friend plays a tech-priest with an autogun and AP rounds. Even after buying Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon, Swift Attack and Lightning attack, I get 4 attacks, all of which are at -10. (However, with OW rules, these are resolved like a full-auto, at -10, as well). My tech-priets buddy, at 0 XP cost and with a pretty common weapon, get +20 and up to 10 hits. It's damned disheartening at times (but also epic). Besides, even when shooting at a -10%, the autogun's ROF is still super useful, especially at close range.

We also noticed that the autogun with AP - because of the combination of ROF 10 and +20 Full-Auto - was heads above more expensive and more 'powerful' weapons. No one wanted to take anything else.

Remember that firing full auto is a full action, so you can spray bullets around, if there's nothing solid between you and your target, 'pretty sure you'll get shot down come the opponent's turn, which means you got to at least plan a bit ahead of time before going all shooty.

Pistols rarely have a semi or full setting, and pistols are quite used by my players; perfect for gun'n'move, so are melee weapons slash'n'disengage (after an acrobatic test of course)

Again, investigation over combat, so being undercover or hidden in the crowd is a good tactic, and its easier to do so with a pisotl and a knife than with an autogun with laser sight, silencer, fire selector and loaded with AP, nonchalantly hanging by a sling on your back (except if you're going undercover in an underhive or warzone, which is rarely)

We tried the switch for a while. Once I had a chance to look over the Black Crusade rules I thought they were quite sleek, and decided to integrate them into our DH game. Bah. I had a Guardsman that murdered Nemesis-level villains with a combat knife. WS in the 50s, Lightning Attack, Damage was d5+8 Pen 2. It was apparent things were going to spiral out of control rather quickly. From that point on I backed off my HO for Black Crusade's rules, and decided each game is self-contained. We'll use the errata for each game, implement a few House Rules here and there, but otherwise no fiddling. Well, except for some weapon abilities/buffs, the change to modifiers for RoF, but nothing anyone else hasn't done I'm sure. Things from Black Crusade in strict moderation, otherwise RAW.

Braddoc said:

Not in the BC/OW rules. Most of the combat actions are now half actions, which leads to much more fluid battles, where you can move and lay down the fire/mele attacks of your choice, etc.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

The later version doesn't really get the whole "Dervish of Death" thing which the original Talent did. It becomes more "Hit and Run" (though it obviously could always be used for that as well). I think it made sense for Deathwatch, as the idea of a Space Marine leaping about was a bit absurd, and instead I envision it as more the Marine barrelling through people with sheer momentum, but I don't see any problem with the original for a normal human Assassin. Maybe some limit placed on how many times you can do it relating to the amount of armour you are wearing, but not turning into the rather bland thing it is now.

It doesn't have a huge impact on the "dervish of death" thing, to be honest. Most of the time, I use assassin strike to move from the last standing enemy in one group to another group of enemies, which means I become engaged in melee with more than one target and can make my remaining attacks anyhow.

And then there's the Reaping Talent, rewitten in OW (I can't remember the new name though) to make it a much more interesting option: it no longer stops the moment someone parries you.

To answer the question: it seemed to us that assassin strike is pricesely meant to be hit and run: you come in, attack your enemy and then get away so they can't take their full range of attacks on you (or you rush to another enemy). It's still super useful. And, consider this: you can only use the same action ONCE in a turn.

(besdies, with 4 attacks you could potentially move 4 times…. in about 6 seconds.)

Darth Smeg said:

That was to answer to Macharias the Mendicant's line about who would pass a weapon with a firing mode that gives you a flat +20 to hit in the DH rules.

Alekzanter said:

Huh? Assuming he rolled really well, that's a 40 WS base, with a cap at 60 (or 65, I can't remember), then -10 for Lightning Attack… 5x a 1d5+8 Pen 2 attack sounds pretty much chump damage against anything in decent armor. He'd take multiple turns to kill something like a Storm Trooper, let alone someone rocking Power Armour or anything with an Unnatural Toughness.

I'll take this moment to once again bless FFG for changing Unnaturals from a multiplier to a modifier. So much nicer, ugh!

Plushy said:

Meh…for me, I'd rather like the 'old way', at least duobleing the TB, makes a Space marine really a step from a normal human, or an Ork a real dangerous, powerful Xeno rahter than being a bump over your regular schmuk

The new method for Unnaturals allows for greater granularity. You can still have a Marine with TB8, but it means you don't always have to have it TB8, it can be TB7 or TB9 and that sort of thing. It's not always going to be a multiple, giving GM's (and the writers, for that matter) greater control over how tough/strong/perceptive/etc. each thing is.

BYE

I'll give you that, but with my GM lens, it feels to me that Orks, Marines and other with unnatural charateristics were leveled down to be more on par with your regular human stock, which for me sounds a bit off when it comes to certain non-humans. Plus double feels more 'unnatural' to me than having a +1 or +2 to a bonus.

This was a very helpful thread. So, here are my questions now:

1. for those who have stuck with the RAW mostly, what "standard" fixes/house rules have you made. It's my experience that most games have a "standard" set of house rules people implement to fix or simplify problem X;

2 what's the easiest way to get th hardcover Dark Heresy books I don't have? Not the adventures, but the "core." Books. I own Dark Heresy Core, Deamon Hunter, and Disciples of the dark god. When I check the others on Amazon, the prices are bizarre and out of my range. My books don't need to be new.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

1-most house rules in my game was to work around the Sororitas character that first arrived later than the other players, working a little with her sororitas requisition list. The Main one was to allow autofire with lasguns: doulbe the clip size, any las wepaon with the semi firing more get a full auto mode at SA rating+2. standard RAW damage is worth 2 charges, and you could fire 3 charge/shot for more power or even a 1charge/shot to save ammo and spray around. I made a few weapon stats as well, they were used on and off.

But I must admit that I rarely use them now, as the Sororitas player dropped, and currently, the PCs have no las weaponry (Didn't really happened they had to absolutely use las- only once and it went ok)

I also did a few training packages, http://dark-heresy.wikispaces.com/i-school , that PCs can train in (the first being mandatory), loosing some spare down time for new skills, talents and the such that they will either never buy, never thought of buying or is practical in terms of story telling element, just no point in having the PCs spend 500xp for the elite package.

I also made some Adeptus exchange program,, for a falt XP value, they got on some 'internship' with another Adeptus (Arbites, The Guard, the Navy etc..) as a way to expant their contacts, and learn, let's say, career specific skills and talents they have no access to (apart from paying 500xp for them as elite package)…because a heartless assasin, a tech-preist and a Sororitas might not always be the most..socially graceful types, it makes asking for info and such rather..hard even impossible sometimes when everyone rolls under 0…

2-Possibly ebay for hardcovers, perhaps DrivethroughRPG (spelling might be off), if you do not mind having it in PDF. I know the prices are lower than a hardcover.

I would recommned you get The Inquisitor's Handbook, it is a worthy companion to the core, both for GM and players alike. Creature Anathema could be agood as well, as it does not limit itself to the Deamon/Orks/Eldars trio of enemies.

furashgf said:

1. We've stuck with the RAW for the most part. We've basically done away with income by career. Not only does it seem entirely arbitrary (how long will a Scum continue to scrape together a pathetic living before he decides to start a smuggling operation or something?), it seems likely that after a rank or two at most, their Inquisitor would send them some sort of stipend. We just didn't see the point of using it.

2. Try a service like abebooks.com. they do used books by checking with used booksellers from the UK, Canada and the US. I've found a few items there. The random prices you find a Amazon is likely because you'd be buying the books from 3rd party retailers anyhow. Otherwise, you might need to do some digging around on the net, but I'm sure you'll be able to find them.