WARNING: This is kind of long.

As overlord I'm doing the Ascention quest. For those of you who know what this quest is, feel free to skip ahead to the next paragraph. The Ascention plot revolves around destroying cities. I can spend 0 XP to buy a plot card that places a "Temple" on a destroyed city. Once there are four Temples in play, I can play a 20 XP plot card that does the following (paraphrased): "At the beginning of your turn, put a comet token on a Temple. All heroes have their maximum health and fatigue reduced by one for each comet token within 3 trails of their location. Once there are seven comet tokens in play, the overlord wins. The heroes can enter the keep at any time."

So, we are exactly halfway through Silver at 300 conquest. I have 62 XP and have destroyed 3 cities. The final city will be rolled to destroy in two weeks, and the heroes won't be able to get to it in time. So basically, very soon I will have destroyed all the cities I need. I have not purchased any Temples yet, so in a minimum of 5 weeks I could be placing comet tokens. Here is the question: do I want to gain significant amounts of XP anymore?

The more XP I gain the faster we get to gold level. Ideally we will just enter gold level before the heroes enter the keep, so I can purchase Diamond monsters while the heroes have as few gold items as possible. I already have 62 XP and I will gain 5 per turn when the final city is destroyed. What incentive do I have to kill the heroes a lot? I will only be ensuring gold level arrives sooner, and with it the overpowered items (and another fatigue upgrade and the gold level relic, if they have time). The further we are into gold when they enter the keep the less chance I have of victory. Of course, once the keep starts I will want to get as many kills as possible so my avatar's health goes up.

It seems to me the best plan is to get event treachery maxed and destroy their items as much as possible. Am I wrong in thinking this? I'm hoping so, as it's very unfortunate that the best plan is to actually not kill the heroes at all (or maybe only 10 XP worth per 3 dungeon levels). It would be boring for them and me. I don't think I will go that route even if it is the best strategy, but it will be annoying to think that by playing hard and killing them I'm actually hurting myself.

Thoughts? Did I miss something? I hope so.

Sorry, I realized my previous post made it sound like I was concerned about the best strategy being destroying as many items as possible. The actual strategy I'm concerned about is avoiding killing the heroes whenever possible so gold level arrives late.

The position you are in is actually an interesting one. Lets break it down:

Week X (now): 300 conquest (62 you)
Week X+1: 304 cq (66 you) + purchase temple 1
Week X+2: 308 cq (70 you) + purchase temple 2 + destroy final city
Week X+3: 313 cq (75 you) + purchase temple 3
Week X+4: 318 cq (80 you) + purchase temple 4
Week X+5: 323 cq (85 you) + (-20) purchase The Harbinger approaches
Week X+6: 328 cq (70 you) + wk1 of THA
Week X+7: 332 cq (75 you) + wk2 of THA
Week X+8: 337 cq (80 you) + wk3 of THA
Week X+9: 342 cq (85 you) + wk4 of THA
Week X+10: 347 cq (90 you) + wk5 of THA
Week X+11: 352 cq (95 you) + wk6 of THA
Week X+12: 357 cq (100 you) + wk7 of THA = you win

So, if you successfully destroy that city in your first roll you have 12 weeks before you win the game; 43 conquest short of gold campaign level. Depending on your avatar, and where your keep is located, you could potentially have the players making a break for the overlord’s keep 6 weeks from now… but possessing a window of up to 11 weeks in which to gear up and prepare for the inevitable.

If the heroes were to time it perfectly and enter your keep at week X+11 they (and you) would need to have acquired an average of 23 conquest per week to arrive at 600 conquest teleport to your keep, and start bringing the pain…

That actually cuts it awfully close…
Each dungeon level has a leader (2 conquest) x 2 = 4
Each dungeon has a leader (4 conquest) x 1 = 4
Each dungeon level has at least 1 rune (3 conquest) x 3 = 9
Each dungeon level has at least one chest with around a 50% chance to not generate a treasure (1 conquest) x .5 x 3 = 1.5
If the heroes deliberately dilly-dally they can force you to go through the deck at least once per dungeon (3 conquest) x 1 = 3

That’s 21.5 conquest per dungeon only for the heroes if you don’t kill them AT ALL and that does not include the potential for overland encounters or for the heroes to simply allow you to burn through your deck three times per dungeon…

If I were the heroes I’d spend week X through X+3 building a huge stockpile of gold and conquest while making my way to an area in which to train the last skills/dice I wanted in week X+4. I’d then hit a dungeon in week X+5 and get to the 3rd level. Once I got all the gold/conquest I could from the third level I’d start killing each other – that’s right, I’d have the heroes kill each other over and over and over again to give the overlord enough conquest until the total hit 600. I’d then grab whatever gold treasure/dice I could from Tamalir and hit the overlords keep with what I had so I didn’t have to deal with those commits screwing my fatigue over.

So yeah – a bit of a bug in the ascension plot but what else is new? I'd keep killing the heroes as normal because I think you're gonna lose this one.

Don't forget they could make him deck them all 3 times. at least twice. that puts the per dungeon to 24.5 or 27.5. I can't remember if the players get sent to tamilir or not upon the third deck reshuffling or if they are just sent outside where they are.

If I were you I'd move my Lts to Tamilir just to add even more pressure to the already bad situation for the players. Just becuase you razed every town you need doesn't mean you can't force the players to decide between defending tamilir or attacking your HQ.

Once you start placing comments the players will probably just rush toward you, possibly taking a detour or two to get a few more gold items. Well add heat to Tamilir and suddenly they're going to lose 3 different ways now. Either you burn Tamilir, comet them to death, or defeat them in your own HQ. That leaves not enough ways to stop you from doing all three.

As for stalling, you probably should anyway. Unstead of killing the heroes just keep applying penalties and ect. Every dungeon they go into put a new Dark Relic on them or something. That'll render most of their new gold items useless. Add poison token to them, frost tokens. Focus on the non-damage ways of hurting the heroes and you might pull it off.

incarna, thanks for your input.

First of all, I should point out that having the heroes kill each other would be so against the spirit of the game that none of us would allow it. So, we can disregard that situation.

You know they can enter the keep the instant I play "The Harbinger Approaches", right? They don't have to gain 600 conquest, although it does teleport them there. Here's my take on the situations you described:

1. The heroes break for the keep ASAP, as soon as week X+5. In this case, they will not have many (if any) gold weapons or upgrades, so they will be weak. Conversely, there will be no tokens reducing their HP/fatigue.

2. The heroes wait until week X+11 to enter the keep. They have nice gold weapons and maybe some gold-level upgrades, but their maximum fatigue and HP are reduced by 6. That would leave the heroes with 10/10/6/6 HP and (assuming they get gold-level fatigue) something like a maximum of 4 fatigue.

Based on this, I think what I want to do is avoid gold level until I can play The Harbinger Approaches. Then I want to enter gold level and purchase as many upgrades as possible before they enter the keep. If they decide to enter right away, I will have Diamond level monsters against their few gold items. If they want to wait, they will be weak and easy to kill due to comet tokens.

I feel that trying to minimize the XP I gain until The Harbinger Approaches is ready isn't against the spirit of the game too much, as heroes should flee their first dungeon before the OL gets 24 XP. It may mean I shouldn't kill many heroes during The Fools Rapids (which is their next dungeon), however, which is disappointing.

EDIT: Good ideas, Neostrider.

Even if you believe in some kind of mystical "spirit" of the game, there are still lots of ways for the Heroes to inject Conquest to speed things up. Since they don't really care about giving you Conquest, they don't need to do things like recover in between dungeons (through temples and buying potions), but can just hit dungeon after dungeon after dungeon. Also, since they don't fear you killing them, they will always do a dungeon all the way to the bottom even if they hit a tough floor. Due to their size, the Legendary Dungeons are also good bets.

The best way you can slow down their Conquest injection, once the final city is razed, is to play cat-and-mouse with your lieutenants in threatening to burn Tamalir (of course, play the Harbinger approaches ASAP), but making sure to run away so they never actually kill a Lieutenant. In Dungeons and Lieutenant fights, use your treachery to emphasize equipment denial, but if the Heroes give you cheap kills, take them. If you can maximize your Treachery AND upgrade every monster class, you'll be able to slow them down a lot more both in dungeons and the final keep, giving you more time to break more equipment.

Don't take it for granted though if they make it to your keep. The Avatars are generally so laughably easy that it could still be a tough fight, even with them down 6 fatigue. The Final Keep is also deceptively easy, because the Heroes don't need to bother with things like picking up money piles (this is especially bad for the Great Wyrm).

I'm not sure I fully understand the dilemma. In the scenario nicely laid out by Incarna, by week X+11, you've only got 100XP. That is barely enough to do 3 Silver and 1 Gold upgrade. Where are you getting to Diamond monsters? Dont you need to do some killing so you can get those Gold and Diamond upgrades? Plus treachery? Plus other expenses?

If you want Gold-Gold-Platinum monsters, that will cost you around 60-60-90, or over 200 XP (a little less w the discount in one category).

Then, what is the problem with advancing to the final stage sooner? The sooner you advance the campaign, sure you lose out on some Comet bonuses, but the Heroes also lose out on all that free XP and time to do their own training. And you getting all that XP means you can have Gold-Gold-Plat by the time they get there.

Sure play the games like the others suggest, like destroying items and threatening Tamalir, as you want the Heroes to face a possible two-way loss, which doubles what they have to accomplish, and gives them less time to train. But I dont see why you'd want to NOT get XP (and lots of it) in the mean time.

It seems to me it only helps the OL to give the Heroes less time and expedite the game. What am I missing?

-mike

The_Immortal said:

Heh, I dont think spirit of the game is "mystical", it's as important as other intangible traits like good sportsmanship and fair play. KW already ruled out the "we'll just sit here and wait for the OL to flip his deck 100 times and send us to the final battle. I think that sets a sufficient precedent. This is the same. "We'll just kill each other 100 times to do the exact same thing".

poobaloo said:

I guess I wasn't clear. The dilemma I'm considering is not killing the heroes often *until gold level arrives*. I'm considering attempting to delay the arrival of gold level until I have played as many plot cards as possible. The thinking behind this is I want to start the "comet counter" as soon as possible, in terms of campaign level. The less time we spend in gold level is less time to get gold items, go for the fatigue upgrade, and do the gold level dungeon. By getting the plot done I limit the weeks the heroes have for gold upgrades.

I have no intention of upgrading everything. In fact, for the campaign to go on that long only disadvantages me, because the heroes improve in power at a much faster rate. Every game week the overlord gets weaker. Also, the other issue is that I won't be limited by XP - I'll be limited by game weeks! Once I get all plot cards out I will have six turns to buy upgrades. 100 - 20 = 80 XP is almost enough for that, and I will certainlly kill the heroes after gold level begins so I will have more XP than that. If I have to go without some upgrades that's fine - the heroes have to go without also, and they would be *much* stronger otherwise.

"The less time we spend in gold level is less time to get gold items"

Ok so if you kill them more in Silver (which you're proposing not doing) then you'll have stronger monsters going into Gold, but your comets will at that point be less progressed, so the Heroes can explore more gold dungeons? Is that the jist of it?

Or even better, win via the comets basically while the Heroes never got the chance to even touch a gold dungeon? They're then forced to fight the avatar w/o (or with few) gold weapons? I'd think w all this free time you give them, what's to stop them from taking the free treasure you're giving them, and doing skill and dice upgrades galore? So they dont get Gold... if you give them forever and free stuff in Silver, that's a blessing. All those dungeon levels they'll blaze thru cuz you didnt upgrade monsters, and dont even try to kill them.

I dunno, I mean you have to give up so much XP in that time. You could be killing them all along, and boosting your own CT.

I just think there has to be a more productive and decisive win than to try to give them all that free stuff.

Instead why not take some of the kills you pass up, and build up your deck with treachery - stuff you'll run out of time to spend later. 2 crushing blows is sure nice, once you get those, you kill more stuff per level than the Heroes will on average find. And if you're so in control that you have the luxury to wait, I presume if you instead went aggressive, you could keep the Heroes from getting some of the dungeon spoils?

Also if say, in Silver, you take an extra 40XP in kills... that will bump you to gold 40XP sooner, and the Heroes will have 40XP less at that point, which means they start off the gold phase already 40XP behind in upgrades. That's one skill they didnt get by now, which will make their gold dungeon crawling tougher. Then, you can expedite their stay in the Gold phase by getting some kills.

The tradeoff? Your comets are a few turns less developed when this silver-gold transition occurs... but instead, you've done another monster group upgrade (or more?) and added some treachery, and crushed some objects.

I guess I've looked at it as the OL is better off if he can force the Heroes thru EACH phase as fast as possible. More kills means faster advancing, which means less time for the heroes to screw around and do upgrades, and sooner that the OL can do the next monster group upgrades.

But I havent really played thru these end-game scenarios as much as some out here. Interesting strategy for sure.

poobaloo said:

No, the thing is I will have monsters at the same strength when we go into Gold. I need to spend five turns buying plot cards, and by then we will be in Gold for sure.

poobaloo said:

They are going to do dice upgrades soon anyway, they have more than enough XP to do that. It's not feasible to make them flee a dungeon, so the choice is not "let the heroes get free treasure, or prevent them from doing so" it is "let the heroes gain 30 XP and I gain 60 XP, or the heroes gain 30 XP and I gain 10 XP". The heroes will just get the same XP and treasure anyway (except for crushing blow, which I will be doing). All I gain is XP I cannot spend in time.

poobaloo said:

I could, but what would I do with that XP? I have 62 XP right now. For four turns I will be buying 0 XP plot cards. Wouldn't you say I'm set for XP until I finish playing them? I can only play one card a turn, and I haven't yet had a lack of XP. The problem is lack of game weeks to purchase upgrades. That's the limiting factor here.

poobaloo said:

I plan on getting two event treachery so I can use Crushing Blow. If I went aggressive, though, I probably can't stop the heroes from getting the treasure. They're not going to flee the Fools Rapids, which is what they are doing next.

poobaloo said:

I am not focusing on the 600 XP number for the final battle. I think they will enter the keep ASAP, before too many comet tokens appear. By getting to gold before I play all the plot cards, I am allowing the heroes time to get upgrades and buy treasure with no time constraint. I look at it this way: once I play the plot cards, the game will end in 7 weeks, one way or another. If gold level happens just after I play the plot cards, they have 7 weeks to get gold-level things. If gold level happened two turns before that, they have 9 weeks to get gold-level things. If they enter the keep immediately, the difference is even more profound: 0 weeks vs 2 weeks.

poobaloo said:

The longer we are in gold the *weaker* the OL gets. I would definitely forego getting any upgrade (you name it) to force the heroes to have one less shot at a town's market, or not have gold-level fatigue, or not have the gold-level relic. Normally I believe your thinking would be correct (about forcing each phase ASAP) but here I have an "artificial" win condition. Another factor is the fact I can purchase any upgrade except for Diamond monsters in silver. I only need one upgrade at gold, while they need a lot. Given the fact I already have a good amount of XP, what do I need to kill the heroes for?

This is what really got me thinking: the OL is best off playing the plot cards in copper, versus silver or gold. If that's the case, I want to delay as long as possible, no? Especially because I won't be running that short on XP any time soon.

I actually think it might be a good idea to implement a house rule that the Overlord can purchase more than 1 upgrade when the conquest total equals 600. A mechanic in which it is strategically in the heroes interest to kill each other over and over again is a really really bad one. I almost NEVER implement house rules but, I think in this case, it’s not just warranted – it’s NECISARY.

Ok, you said this:

Based on this, I think what I want to do is avoid gold level until I can play The Harbinger Approaches. Then I want to enter gold level and purchase as many upgrades as possible before they enter the keep. If they decide to enter right away, I will have Diamond level monsters against their few gold items. If they want to wait, they will be weak and easy to kill due to comet tokens."

How is it, that if your plan works to the letter, that if the heroes decide to enter right away, you will have Diamond level monsters against their few gold items? If they enter right away, you'll have no upgraded monsters, nor any game weeks in which to do so. What are your upgrades at now? Per the above timeline, you'd only have about 100 CT to spend at this point, and that's not enough to do the upgrades you want.

poobaloo said:

Sorry, I forgot to specify my plan in that situation. If gold level arrives the turn I play The Harbinger Approaches, I will look at the game board. If the heroes are standing next to my keep, waiting for me to play it then I will just buy Diamond level monsters first, then Harbinger*. However, if the heroes are too far away to get to my keep then I can just buy Harbinger first, followed by Diamond monsters. Of course, I think it's likely gold level will arrive before I play Harbinger anyway.

There's only one upgrade I want: Diamond level monsters. I'm willing to not get any more treachery, avatar upgrades, or upgraded monsters in exchange for the heroes entering the keep with few or no gold items. I believe that is a win for me. No upgrades I get will overpower the effect of some good gold-level items (well, crushing blow, but I can't *rely* on that).

* If I think the heroes are going to waste turns sitting there, waiting for Harbinger to be played, I can keep buying monster treachery or something. In this way they waste turns while I get stronger.

That's a good point, you dont HAVE to play it if they're camped outside ready to enter if you do. So you're at gold monsters now? Which categories are at what level?

poobaloo said:

Gold humanoids, all else copper. I don't remember exactly what other upgrades I have (I'm at work right now) but I have 1 monster and 1 event treachery, as well as all the Lts I could get. Seige engines too.

Given that the Temples cost nothing to play, I'm quite shocked that you haven't had a chance to be plunking at least a few of them down earlier in the game. Surely you didn't raze all 4 of the cities you need simultaneously and right at the end.

But in any case, after further thought, I think I now agree that for (most of) the rest of Silver level, you want to avoid killing the Heroes even if they run naked into a room full of beastmen. The exception is, when they enter the dungeon that will put the CT total over 400 EVEN if you get 0 CT (usually this will occur at around CT total = 383), you suddenly want to start going guns blazing again and get as much XP as you can for making the jump into Gold level. 62 extra XP might sound like a lot, but it's only 2 monster upgrades, and having two monster classes still at Copper is pretty bad.

The_Immortal said:

Most of the temples fell fairly quickly, but you're right I could have been placing them earlier. The reason I haven't upgraded any of the other monster levels is because we added a house rule that the overlord gets a free monster upgrade halfway through silver (i.e. right now), although he still has to spend the week. Of course, now I might not have time to play it.

Also, since we keep detailed records of our descent games online, I know we've played 13 weeks so far. I purchased two humanoid upgrades, 3 Lts, 2 treachery, focused, transport gem, and big trouble (a big mistake, actually, I misunderstood how it worked). That leaves three weeks were I didn't purchase anything - one was the very first week, another was right after purchasing silver humanoids due to being at 0 XP, and I forgot the other situation but I think I was far too low on XP also. Transport gem was essential to being able to destroy the final city. I should not have purchased big trouble (and maybe not focused) but I bought those earlier, before I realized that I actually didn't want to gain very much XP.

But still that would leave me with either more temples down but 2 monsters not above copper, or two monsters above copper but no temples. It turns out it's a good thing I didn't get the monsters earlier, otherwise I'd have more XP now. But I think once I play all the plot cards the limited factor will be weeks, not XP, correct? They either run to my keep and I have 2-3 turns, or they take their time, in which case I get more XP from time passes or the gold level dungeon.