if i m looking at the timing flow charts at faq3,3 correctly there is a framework action window before marshall phase ends that states[active player declares that he has no more actions that cost gold.]

so after i declare that i m done in those kind of actions my opponent CANNOT play events like DISSENSION but only responses ,,right??

on the contrary though ,,if my first part is correct ,,in page 16 of the faq it states that!![it s important to note that even if only the active player may marshall cards with gold cost,after he resolves each of his actions OPPONENTS MAY STILL TRIGGER EFFECTS,PLAY EVENT CARDS even if they are not the active player.

i m definitelly need everyone s help.thnks!!

Once you are no longer the active player you cannot play attachments, locations or chars, but can indeed still dissension etc. Note that something like summer sea that costs 0 is still considered a gold cost.

so, how my opponent triggers dissension ,,for example,,when there is no player action window open?

after i declare i finished action that cost gold ,even zero gold we are in the FRAMEWORK ACTION window just before phase ends window right?

Each Player actions step ends only when all players pass consecutively on taking actions. So after each action taken by the active player, each player has an opportunity to take an action (including playing Dissension). In most games, players will let the active players take actions consecutively and only interrupt when they want to do something. In very serious games, players will ask after each action whether the others have any responses or actions.

i tottally agree ,but i m speaking of something i face very often playing in octgn ,,opponents let the active player who happens to be the second player , [so after him marshall ends] do all of his marshall actions and when he declares finish,,,they play dissension in order to have the max possible knowlege of which ally to discard.

my question and belief isthat they illeggaly trigger dissension cause there is no PLAYER ACTION WINDOW OPEN, only FRAMEWORK WINDOW!!!!

AM I CORRECT OR NOT??

mitseni-greg said:

I see what you are asking. If you are going to be stickler to the action and framework windows of the marshaling phase, then you must give the opponent the opportunity to play his marshaling actions during your turn. Otherwise you are absolutely correct that when you declare that you are finished marshaling cards that cost gold, that there is no player action window remaining to let the opponent play cards like Dissension if you marshaled last. That would be a good reason to want to go last in marshaling. It's like playing a game of chicken with Ally characters.

I imagine a scenario working like this:

1 - Marshal Reek with the intention of marshaling another character.

2 - Give the opponent a chance to play Dissension. They choose to pass.

3 - Knowing that you taking another player action will allow the opponent another chance to play cards like Dissension, you decide to pass and end your turn to Marshal cards.

4 - The opponent panics and plays Dissension. He cannot per the Marshaling Framework windows.

5 - You proceed to win an INT and steal one of the opponents characters. He's pissed. You win at being an annoying opponent with Reek. :-)

thnks a lot bomb who finally enter the heart of my issue.As a fair player should do ,so i always ask my opponent for actions? after any action of mine in marshall phase.

the cheating here is when an opponent waits with patience to see all your characters in order to decide which one to discard ,,,,but anyway my main rulling issue is the one i mentioned in my first post.

I WANNA RESOLVE THIS RULLING CONTRADICTION IN THE FAQ.

as u agree with me about the frame work action window ,,how u interpretate the page 16 text that i focus upon in my first post???

mitseni-greg said:

mitseni-greg said:

What you are pointing to in the FAQ has no applicability once the player action window closes. It has no bearing on your real question, which is when does the player action window close?

As Bomb says, you are talking about a (very common) situation in which the following happens:

"(Last) Active Player: I play X.

Opponent: I pass.

(Last) Active Player: I pass too. That closes the player action window. I have no more Marshaling actions.

Opponent: Wait! I want to play Dissension. The player action window isn't closed yet."

You can handle that one of two ways:

1. Yes, by the strict interpretation of the game's timing rules, the player action window is closed. You missed your chance to play Dissension.
2. Fine, we'll "rewind" to the last point that you passed and you can play Dissension. But if we're rewinding, and not holding you to your "I pass," we're also not holding me to my "no more Marshaling actions" statement. I can spend gold with impunity.

Which one you decide on is up to the two players.

Ideally, to avoid any confusion, the interchange could have gone like this:

"(Last) Active Player: I play X. Do you want to take any actions?

Opponent: No. I pass.

(Last) Active Player: I pass too. That closes the player action window. I have no more Marshaling actions."

Opponent: Wait! I want to play Dissension. The player action window isn't closed yet.

(Last) Active Player: Dude, I gave you the chance to take an action. You passed, then I passed. That's how player action windows close. You can't change your mind now."

I have a hard time following the inconsistancy you are trying to point out. It says if you take a player action your opponent's have that opportunity as well. So if you marshal a card, they can trigger/play a single any phase/marshalling effect. Then you have the opportunity to take your own player action again, which includes marshalling a card, playing an event, triggering an effect, etc.

You never leave the player action window until both players pass. "Declaring you have no more actions that cost gold" is actually just the fact after both you as active player pass and your opponent pass consecutively. I mean, why else would you pass if you still had marshalling actions?

FAQ pg 14: "Action/response options always continue clockwise in this fashion until all players consecutively pass."

Player Action 1a: You marshal a card

Player Action 1b: your opponent passes

Player Action 2a: You marshal a card

Player Action 2b: your opponent plays an event card

Player Action 3a: You pass (you are done marshalling)

Player Action 3b: Your opponent still gets a player action*

*If your opponent takes his player action, you get a chance at another one. And even if you pass he still gets an opportunity at another one. If he doesn't then the game moves on. However, like Bomb points out, to be technical about it, if during 2b your opponent passes and then you pass the Player Action window ends there and you continue on through the Marhsalling Phase.

At least, that's my interpretation of it…

It is this exact issue why I now ask after ever action if my opponent has an action. It is not 'cheating' to wait until the end to play your dissension, but it is definitely exploiting some players' lack of clarity about the timing structure.

dcdennis said:

As I said aboveL if we're not holding 'you' to your "pass," we're not holding 'me' to my "I'm done Marshaling."

To clarify, I was more referring to being the one doing the Marshalling. If I play an ally, I always ask…'actions?'. If he says no, boom, Marshalling over. I no longer assume silence is equivalent to passing. Make them explicitly say it if any shenanigans are expected.

Play your Ally, kneel a cost reducer location you don't need then ask your opponent if he wants to pass

Bolzano said:

A clever way to get the information you need. :-)