Dezmond, I fail to see any valid arguements other than "Space marines ar teh roxorz", I also fail to see where the fun in being an unstopable killing machine in an RPG is.

Yes, you like space marines, I think most of us got that now, but that dosn't mean you have to be an arse about it, what is it you want with your post anyway? try and convince us that space marines are cool? cause I agree, they are (but so are many other things in 40k) or do you just want space marines in dark heresy? is that it? well then you'll have to wait for Deathwatch, just like the rest of us.

Overall, I fail to see your point and I fail to see why posting pictures would help anything other than taking up space.

Dezmond said:

That's a lot of baloney (or bollocks, depending on where you're from). Your interpretation is hyperbolic and unsupported. Even diehard Space Marine fans don't carry on in your ridiculous manner.

You are adding nothing whatsoever of value to this community. Shape up or ship out, man. I know you know the difference between a good and a bad post, because your posts are so deliberately bad. If you come around here just to screw things up then you're being extremely rude and inconsiderate. Why would you want to be that?

Has anyone suggested Dez have a look at US White Dwarf Issue 300, with the Space Marines in the Movies ruleset? Seems to be exactly what he wants in a Space Marine game.

For that matter, if anyone has a copy it might be useful for a conversion to DH just for giggles.

Lexicanum said:

Wouldnt et be something like this:

WS, BS, S, T, wounds and fate: more than you

Skills/talents: are you kidding? theyre fecking space marines, just lie down before you get hurt.

Dezmond said:

Wow he sparkles. Come to think of it there's another character that sparkles, has a load of fans that bath in his glow and worship at the altar of his pelvis, and generally makes most other guys feel uncomfortable after seeing them... Edward Cullen from Twilight...

@Peacekeeper

2. Whoever said Vos was a Scum is not reading the same book I read. He is a Guardsman the same as Drake, but with a different origin and possibly some rank 1 or 2 alternate career rank and possibly a starting package. Heck, its obvious drake has some sort of starting package/alternate career rank, that made him aware of all the house guard stuff.

That would be me. And that would be cool, because we could then swap books and read another story to pass the time before the second part comes out!

Now, to be a little more serious: The StH cell is pretty much your average DH gaming group. It's got an arbitrator, an assassin, a techpriest and a psyker. Missing are the cleric, the guardsman, the adept and the scum. The adept character is almost certainly Pieter Quillem, the interrogator of the pro- and epilogue - I foresee him and the cell teaming up in the next book. The cleric role isn't filled by anyone. Drake is as guardsman-ish as one can be, starting in the Scourges and coming over to the Guard. Vos on the other hand side... yeah, he was in the guard (for a rather short time). But the talents he showed in the book were mainly his survival skills and his social abilities in moving in the underworld. I'd assume that is the direction he will continue to move in. After all, fighting is something every acolyte does anyway, so we'll have to look beyond it to determine the actual careers.

If I had to stat him out, I'd assume Imperial World origin, scum career with some kind of background package to represent his short stay in the guard. Also, switching his BS and WS advances.

Dezmond said:

That stuff I said about pelvic thrusts really sunk into people, didnt it? XD

Well after playing DoW II now, I don't see the world shattering uberness. Other then the usual game tropes of insta-heals and rez's, your Marines need to use cover, concealment, and tactics, else you end up getting hurt. If you do any of the above though you'll win, especially concidering that most of the forces you face are about half the size of your entire group. So I'll agree superior strength vs superior numbers equals a win.

Back on track now, since I've said my fill on the Space Marines, and I guess I'm just being difficult.

I agree with some of the other posts where a lot of the issues that occur with tier 1 characters in Dark Heresy isn't so much the mechanics of the game, as much as players get caught into roleplaying tropes of ignoring cover and concealment, and then getting hurt for it.

I will say though that I still have an issue with how low attributes are at the beginning of the game, especially when dealing with straight attribute rolls, which often end up having a negative modifier to them, making it almost impossible to succeed at a roll. When you've only got a 28 in an attribute and the big bad gives you even just a -10 modifier, well you can see the issues there.

+++++Well after playing DoW II now, I don't see the world shattering uberness+++++

Wait for the space marine brawler/god of war clone. :-)

Now tell me people. How badass is a jedi?

That is what Space Marines are competing against. In the hearts and minds of the fen.

Time for an upgrade.

Dezmond said:

The Jedi epitomize my opinion of anti-badass:ness. They are amongst the most ridiculuous things ever invented. The Sith I can like, being evil bastards and all that (and lets be honest, the Sith are a lot more of the Imperial/Imperium mindset than the Jedi-pansies).

First of all, the video is ridiculous. The one thing i cant help but ask the thin air around me is: Why the hell are the robots waiting to fire their laser-thingamajings to such a stupid interval that actually lets the jedi parry the beams? I mean, if they all fired at the exact same time (and they are supposed to be frigging robots, it would definetly be within their ability to co-ordinate their actions to such a degree), the little Jedi f**k would have been burnt to a crisp.

Which just goes to show that the old saying: "When in doubt, spray and pray" even works on ridiculous jedi.

SECOND of all are their stupid weapons. A LIGHTSABRE? Im sorry, i might be scientifically damaged or something, but the idea of making light stop at a certain point and create a blade of sorts out of it is just to implausible to me. A power sword i can understand (energy field shaped like the weapon it emmanates from etc.), that makes sense. Making light just "stop" at that point like a turd stuck in someones rectum just doesnt work.

But sure, I can understand that it makes for fancy schmancy effects, and Star Wars are after all just stupid space opera entertainment that even I find ammusing (and was totally caught up in when I was a young lad). But at heart and mind I will always be a bigger fan of the hard sci-fi settings like Alien, Starship Troopers (despite its many short-comings) and of course, the creme de la creme: Warhammer 40.000.

Which brings me to my second question: WHY THE HELL isnt someone making a movie out of Warhammer 40.000!? We've all seen the intro to Dawn of War, and it simply epitomizes awesomeness (whithout having to resort to Dezmonds over the top standards), we know we want it, we know it can be done. So WHERE IS IT!?

Bah, he wasn't badass because he was a Jedi, he was badass because he vaguely resembled Samuel L Jackson

Varnias Tybalt said:

But sure, I can understand that it makes for fancy schmancy effects, and Star Wars are after all just stupid space opera entertainment that even I find amusing (and was totally caught up in when I was a young lad). But at heart and mind I will always be a bigger fan of the hard sci-fi settings like Alien, Starship Troopers (despite its many short-comings) and of course, the creme de la creme: Warhammer 40.000.

And they call me crazy!

This is 40k! There should be no character out there anywhere that we can't make our *****.

Culture ROUs, The Shrike, Jedi, Dante, Superman, Jane Eyre, Captain Pugwash - All must crushed beneath the heel and impaled on the chaos spiky bit of the mighty Warhammer! In Space!!!!111!!!!

Dezmond said:

Of course! And you know why? Because in WH40K EVIL WINS!

No matter if its the space-nazis from holy terra, or the daemon-spawn from the warp, or the sadistic eldar, or the brutish orks, or the cold necrons, or the hungry tyranids. In some way (no matter which of them comes out on top) they are evil, insane or just plain nasty. Well, theres the Tau of course, but nobody cares about them. They are too small to be of any significance.

And why do I want to have so many flavours of evil and wickedness? Well, I dont know exactly. It might be because I "suffer" from slightly misanthropic tendencies, or it might be because hollywood have force-fed me with "Goody-two-shoes endings" where "the good guys" win all the frigging time (like Star Wars for example) If it were up to me, the rebellion would've been crushed under the Imperial war-machine and the Jedi hunted to extinction. That would've been nice for a change.

Which is probably why hollywood probably wont turn to making a movie about WH40K (or they would just ruin it, like they ruin everything else, with the Imperium of Man being a quasi-american "democracy", Space-Marines that smoke cigarrs and always save a hard-ass stubble on their chin in order to further emphasize their mean seargeant:ness). Its not exactly considered "good manners" in that blasted place to make an evil dictator-regime like the Imperium of Man to look like the "good guys".

Why must there always be "good guys"? And why, OH WHY, must they always win? Am I the only one who've noticed how cliché it is with good guys winning ALL THE TIME?

I have actually read this entire thread... It has had its moments and here's my two thrones.

I GM three groups at the moment and none of them are especially powerful compared to the opposition they face, they fight tooth and nail, and often end up dragging their mutilated selves out of the conflicts. It's just what they want (the players) and that's what I give them. The RAW will make some pretty tough characters at the higher ranks, but that's the point, right?

I admit that my groups, everyone of them, agreed on making the game just a bit more deadly. But they do love the gritty stuff... bunch of howling madmen (and women) the lot of 'em. (See 'Damage mod' in the House rules section)

But the RAW isn't broken in anyway, they are well written and works just fine as a guideline.. because, that's what they are. The rules gives you the foundation to build your game on, just like every other RPG rulebook ever written. Now, if you think your characters are too weak... discuss it in the group, and if everyone agrees, the GM will start handing out heavy bolters and power armor. Think you're too powerful? Tell the GM and have him "up the stakes". It's a RPG, you are meant to have fun, that's it.....thats all there is too it.

On the 'Hero' -thing my personal opinion is this. To me, superman isn't a hero. He's just some invinsible guy who never loses. It never gets exciting or even remotely interesting..he wins.. again.. /golfclap. Defeating odds that are stacked against you is heroic. A first level Acolyte stumbling from a dark alley, beaten half to death, after killing his first mutant with a lead pipe is more heroic than Superman.... why.. because he didn't know that he would 'just win' the fight.

Low-powered PC, very funny if the players like it that way. Powerful PCs, ool, as long as they are challenged. Overpowered = Boring.

Heroes beat the odds.

The worse the odds are, the bigger heroes they are.

Some heroes die.

Nice call serialkilla.

Again a few notes.

1. StH notes: Vos as a scum. I really didnt see him that way (chain axe, giant of a man, was in the guard, just sounds of Guardsman) but a few things didnt match the Game. Such as PCs with Lore skills who werent Adepts, Clerics of Tech Priests. And so forth. But I can see Vos being a sucm with a unconventional player (you know the type, the player in D&D who takes the STR 18 and WIS 10 character and plays a Cleric follower of the god of peace!).

I once played a Monk in 2nd Edition D&D and everyone assumed he was a cleric/priest when in actuality he was a Rogue. Oh, not a back stabbing, lockpicking, trap finding rogue, but a Thief of the Investigator Kit who actually happened to also be a ordained monk (I watched a lot of Cadfael as a teeneager).

2. Space Marines are Space Marines. Everyone has their view. I respect Dez's dedication and focus for his interests. Just because it annoys me doesnt mean his desires or wants are wrong or misplaced. Its just to the point that its old. Yes, Dez, we know. I was angry when the game first came out with no real Commissars, which is why I made my own Commissar rules early on (as an entire NEW career) and later turned it into a series of alternate career ranks and a banckground package after the Inquisitor's Handbook came out.

So in my mind's eye, and we all may differ, Space Marines are an amalgam of Origin (Space Marine Chapter, instead of Forge World and so forth), Starting Background Packages and alternate career ranks.

3. Deathwatch, Rogue Trader and additional Dark Heresy supplements: I hope as the game of 40K RPG broadens we get more and more alternate career ranks, ideally there should be one for each rank of each career and a few that are open to more then one or all careers. And Id liked to see interesting ones, such as Deserter for Guardsman, or Traitor Guard for the same.

On the same vein I hope that in the future (if they do a updated edition of the game) I would love to see starting equipment be a mix of homeworld, career, rank and so forth.

4. The Forum Overall: I love this forum, not necessarily this thread, as I dont get many chances to play DH while down range, but I get to hear all of your opinions, views, experiences and epiphonies. Sure I got to put up with Space Marine love, but no worse the Eldar Love, old 40K fluff love, grim dark love and so forth. Just more space marine love.

5. Again Dez, check out the Space Marine fan supplement. It is prett decent.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Not if you want to live up to this kind of imagery:-

Dezmond said:

From everything I've read so far it seems to me that if you want to live up to the imagery of Space Marine flavor your want you might as well pick up Amber, have your character buy the 40k universe as his own personal shadow and between you and your GM let you have the no-holds barred fun you want to have playing as a universe shattering figure.

That being said I'm sure by now you must have taken what you see as a hum-drum drab 40k universe in Dark Heresy characters and made your own rules for Space Marines which I am interested in seeing if you do have them.

Arbentur said:

Christ no. I don't have time for that - theres an internet forum people are WRONG on!

--

That said, I think I might look at something like Rune

http://www.atlas-games.com/rune/index.php

or Agon:-

http://www.agon-rpg.com/

The idea being that players compete against each other to see whose Marine can slay the most foes. The challenge is to better your peers, rather than directly in overcoming the enviroment. The enviroment will be overcome - the question is who overcame the most of it. This sits rather nicely with the Deathwatch idea - all the Marines are working togeather, but each wishes to win glory for themselves and their own chapter.

(Agon has an interesting thing whereby every time your hero is defeated you gain Fate - the idea of the game is to score as many points as possible before your fate catches up with you).

If one insists on keeping the d100 mechanic, epic scores act as a bump to the opposition like in Heroquest. So 350 becomes 50w3. So a foe with strength 250 (50w2) loses one success level on the roll. So a critical success becomes a normal success and a normal success becomes a fail. So if both roll 40, the Marine passes and the opponent fails.

Ideally, I'd like to keep things abstract, so one can imagine the action how you prefer (and I can have my enormous swords and clouds of enemies being throw around with each swing and others can... Not), but that might get in the way of publishing books of ever large guns and swords and sheilds. Which would be an important cornerstone of the project.

Serialkilla said:

That can be a problem sometimes. The problem in question is the absurdity of the situation. If you've beaten 100 Plagueberarers (and please, dont ask me about the details, they are for the most part written in this thread for all sceptical unbelievers to see), and the players think: "hm! That wasnt so hard, now was it?" (well as a matter of fact it was hard, REALLY hard, but since that encounter our characters have grown even stronger, experience-wise). So whats next? 200 Plaguebearers? 10 Bloodthirsters of Khorne?

You see what I mean by it being absurd after a while? And in-game, what would the PCs think of their Inquisitor? "Well, he didnt manage to kill us when he tried to send us to take out 100 plaguebearers, so this time he wants us to (remember we are normal, human Acolytes, not Astartes) kick bloodthirster-ass times ten..."

If I were an Acolyte in that situation, I would seriously doubt that our Inquisitor actually wants to see us survive his missions. (sure, to be fair, at that particular encounter our Inquisitor didnt know that it would turn into a daemoninfested slaughterhouse, but our GM sure did).

It just becomes absurd after a certain point, where the GMs only tools to beef up the challange is to send more and tougher enemies.

I guess thats why the closing adventure for that particular cell (an adventure IM the game master in) is more concerned about in-fighting within the group rather than the group having to fight other people. We've already decided that our Acolytes for that cell are to be promoted to Inquisitors after a certain amount of XP (well in-game it will pass several years), thats why I designed the closing adventure to provide a bitter (but very epic) ending. Something that will shatter the relationships within the group.

And that will be a tip for this thread. If you, like me, ever feel that the PCs are growing to strong, provide a story that sets them apart and against eachother. And also promote heresy within the group, instead of actively denying it to happen (lets say that a PC wants to make a daemon pact, let him/her do it, instead of stopping the plan dead in its tracks). Quite simply: if the outside enemies are proving to be a little too weak, and it feels absurd to just send in more and stronger enemies, turn the Acolytes upon themselves. Its the righteous thing to do.

Well there are two sides to this story.

One is, as Varnias stared, that the power creep of enemies can get simply overbearingly ridiculous and totally out of wack with reality. Its the old AD&D trope where suddenly your level 20 characters never see another rat or goblin tribe because of enemy powercreep. So what do you do? Enemy powercreep.

On the other, its the problem if you don't increase the enemies powerlevel, boredom begins to creep in. As fun as some people may find having a single character that can wipe out 100 people all by themselves while eatting a sandwich and never breaking the sweat, game after game after game of doing that looses its oomph. Varnias defeating 100 plaguebearers was obviously epic for him. Doing it every game session and that epicness turns to yawning boredom, so you HAVE to bring powercreep into it.

The other issue ends up being the powercreep of the characters. Players want their characters to advance, to become stronger, to kill new things and take their bigger badder stuff. Again its roleplaying at its worse sometimes, but by higher levels characters often ignore the "beginning level" loot, and just take the stuff that will sell the most or be the most useful. Why take 10 SP pistols when you can take 2 heavy bolters? So as players become stronger, to avoid issue number 2, the creatures need to be more powerful.

Problem is, in order for you to counter the players ever increasingly large and powerful arsenal and keep the game epic, your enemies start getting increasingly large and get increasingly powerful arsenals, which begins an armsrace, and leads directly to powercreep.

Its a never ending cycle that GMs for decades have been trying to balance. How do you keep a game fun and epic for session after session after session while countering the fact that to do so your players are going to be becoming more and more epic, meaning that what was once epic is now commonplace?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Personally, I've found that tactics and preparation are the best means of turning an encounter from "too weak to bother with" to "actually quite dangerous" - NPCs who fight intelligently and have a good idea of what they're facing (and can equip themselves and act accordingly before the fight) stand a much better chance than those who don't.

Elite mercenaries shouldn't just rush forwards to get shot, and NPCs should fight with an appropriate degree of intelligence (rather than, to borrow MMORPG parlance, just striding forwards and attacking the guy generating the most 'aggro'). Use of cover, suppressive fire, grenades, specialist weaponry and ammunition and advantageous battlefield conditions (the same kinds of advantages that PCs use - such tools are not the exclusive domain of player characters) all contribute greatly to how challenging a combat is. It's far from just a matter of throwing increasingly tough enemies at the group in increasingly large numbers.

The whole idea of "enemy powercreep" or "where are all the orcs?" syndrome (you only see wuss monsters at Level Wuss, and then you only see extreme monsters at Level Extreme) has always bothered me. It's one of those things where you can "see the sound boom in the shot"... i.e. where the virtual world is exposed as purely fictional and you lose the appeal of exploring and interacting with it.

To me, this is solved through the use of scope and complexity. Wuss level characters are sent on fairly straightforward missions, or into places likely infested only by those baddies they are likely able to overpower. Extreme level characters are sent into far more hostile situations, or situations that are very complicated and require resourcefulness and finesse to solve.

As I see it, at first you're dealing with cults, heretics and the like. Then, as the characters prove they can handle it, they get sent on more difficult missions... maybe more difficult because they involve rumors of more powerful things like Chaos monsters or genestealers, or maybe more difficult because they are more sensitive. For example: you must root out the heretical cult that dominates the government offices of Hive Chicagius without spreading word of it among the populace, who are restive and near to revolt. There's a mission for high-level Inquisitorial agents that still only deals with cultists. However, these cultists run the local government... so not only do the good guys not have access to those resources, the bad guys do. And you have to accomplish your mission without driving the current social situation over the edge, because for whatever reason the =][= doesn't want to see that hive revolt right now (there's about to be a big anti-Xenos crusade launched and Hive Chicagius is where they produce power cells for las weapons, or whatever).

Just being tough and able to hit what you shoot at is not enough for some missions of extreme importance. In fact, in the Imperium guys who can open a can of whoopass are pretty much a dime a dozen. But the problem is that Delta Force can't solve every problem. Sometimes you need James Bond. It's not just a question of killing lots of things... you will need to do that, and sneak by some other things, and utilize some complex technological devices, and smooth talk your way into someone's confidence, and trick your adversary, and avoid your adversary's tricks, and know the airspeed velocity of an unladed (Calixian) swallow.

In short, they have to be multi-talented, clever and even subtle. That's a whole lot harder than merely being lethal. Don't just artificially ramp up the number and power level of the PCs' foes... instead ramp up the complexity and sensitivity of their tasks. In the end, it's pretty obvious how you deal with a genestealer. It's not so obvious how you deal with a heretic who holds a hostage deemed "not expendable", is a ranking officer in the Imperial Navy and has framed you for treason. Both situations may be ultimately concluded by pulling the trigger on a flamer, but in the latter situation only a top shelf crew is going to ever get close enough to pull that trigger... and that's what makes it an adventure for top tier characters.

The last encounter Doc III put us through was unexpectidly epic. We faced off against 6 untrained psychers, each specializing in one power, and their boss a fast as lighting sword fighter. Things went from bad to worse real fast and then to the realm of "Even more worster". It seemed that every time a witch tried to use a power it would trigger some negative effect. some floaty guy was shooting lighting at Varn, so he got a taste of heavy stubber. The next round Varn ran up to him to hit him with h power fist, I guess he dodged or some thing. Next thing Varn knew the psycher's lightning bolt power backfired and the psycher switched bodies with Varn. Varn trapped in the psychers body was upset to say the least and knew he couldn't take "himself" on in his currest state. So, he jumped on another weak looking psychers next to him and managed to violently subdue the psycher bare handed. A few rounds later the guy in Varn's body triggers the same body switching thing again, but this time it affected every one...lol. So, every one switched bodies around randomly, both the good guys and the bad guys. Our arbitrator (can't spell his name) ended up in the bad guy boss's body and then killed himself to...er...kill the bad guy. Then he had to make a Will Power test or die, and he made it. So, he got his own body back and the enemy boss's soul was cast into the warp. Some more body switching later, Varn got lucky and ended up in his own body. Every one was so fatigued that they passed out. Varn took 4 fatigue, but was tough enough to stay standing. After some cleanup, a crazy excape, and a crash landing later we were not out of trouble yet.

The body switching was not the only perils of the warp triggered during that fight, things went real crazy real fast.

Now that is Epic without throwing 100 plague bearers or spamming some other random monter on us, but I wouldn't mind fighting 258 ratling cooks.

(edit) oh yea I forgot to mention out of a party of 5 we lost 2 of up from a pshychic fatigue attack on turn 1 of combat. The pshycher and gun slinger/sniper went down on turn 1 and slept thoguh the whole fight. So, it was 3 of us VS 7 of them. And every turn there was a chance that we could get knocked out if we failed a will save.

Thats one of my beefs with most RPGs these days, power creep and ability growth (personally I blame video games, but thats just my hatred of them being used as an excuse to blame them for everything, from Jessica Simpson films to views on the war in Iraq, Im f'n wierd!). I hate the fact that I have to be a certain rank to use a certain weapon. It basically says that your character doesnt really advance only his equipment does. Its like a video game where you unlock secret weapons because you blew up 23 barrels and a soda machine while fighting the zombies at the hospital, or you did up up down down left right left right select and got infinite lives in Contra. (or however that code goes).

When I look at comics, sci-fi novels, and what not (even those set in the 41st millenium) I very rarely see characters suddenly change weapons as they get further along in their adventures. They learn things, and improve, the get better and better and gain reputation and allies and enemies, but rarely they upgrade weapons. Kal Jerico keeps the same guns over the entire run of the strip, Commissar Cain uses a Chainsword and Laspistol in all 6 novles, despite the span being a century or so. He doesnt walk out of the tyranid infested mine and then go, wow, now I can use a bolt pistol and power sword! and then change weapons.

Maybe he gets crack shot or quick draw, but the weapon upgrades and skill upgrades in DH seem too influenced by video game leveling.

Simply listing the maximum number of weapon training a career can have at a certain rank would work, and then give each weapon training category prerequisites would solidify that system. So you need a S35 to use a heavy bolter and so forth, not be rank 4, or whatever.

In my experiences in the military (yes Im going there again) and based on what I have read in the IG novels, IG codex and the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, soldiers learn all sorts of things in basic training. Heck, even whiteshields/conscripts can get heavy weapons in the Codex.

But back on track here.

A good game shouldnt be gaged and elevated by increase in weaponry and armour. PCs become more compentant as the are and therefore better with what they have.

The only game I have really found where characters start off as fairly competent and continue to stay at a similar level is DC Hereos. But that system is alot different from DH.

I just prefer to keep my characters to lasweapons and auto weapons with a few bolt pistols. Remember, even Eisenhorn used a Auto-Pistol.

+++++Heck, even whiteshields/conscripts can get heavy weapons in the Codex.+++++

Aye, thus showing they are at least rank 4 (or whatever it is) and just how ultimately redshirted DH pcs are. You gotta play six months to even get to the level of a whiteshield.

Couple that with the constant comments in adventures about why the PCs get to do this job instead of someone qualified, and you go a long way to realising where the inpression the PCs are redshirts comes from.